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Refining vvt activation rpm standalone.



  172 phase 1
Hi running a 172 on 197 cams with 8 degree, intake length 27. wondering what's best set rpm range for the vvt to be running at to get optimum power? At current base map is set to on/off with range of 1450rpm right through to the end. To save time at the dyno wondered if there is a point to flip it back off to get bit more up the top and keep the curve going nicer up there better save time at the dyno to figure this out?
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
Its far faster to do it on the dyno. Just make sure its all working properly.

I would do a pull with it each way and plot the graphs over the top of each other to decide where to switch over so within 5-10mins on the dyno you will have it set in the right place.
 
  172 phase 1
Its far faster to do it on the dyno. Just make sure its all working properly.

I would do a pull with it each way and plot the graphs over the top of each other to decide where to switch over so within 5-10mins on the dyno you will have it set in the right place.

Yeah that would make sense on quickest way to do this for figuring whats best on and off point considering all the other veriables that may affect whens best to activate on any given build👌.

Did read on one of these posts that even thou the function isn't used on the standard ecu that the 172 vvt is capable of taking command through pwm to give it transitial veriation if then used on a standalone?? Is this true?? If so is it best to go through setting that up or stick with the simple off/on functionality as was used as standard 🤔
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
Yeah that would make sense on quickest way to do this for figuring whats best on and off point considering all the other veriables that may affect whens best to activate on any given build👌.

Did read on one of these posts that even thou the function isn't used on the standard ecu that the 172 vvt is capable of taking command through pwm to give it transitial veriation if then used on a standalone?? Is this true?? If so is it best to go through setting that up or stick with the simple off/on functionality as was used as standard 🤔
I'm not at all sure on that one. It was likely setup mechanically as on/off so even if you could pulse the solenoid to control it differently I'm not sure how effective that would be. Pretty sure later cars 197 etc. were PWM and variable between their limits. I'd probably just take a look at the torque curves with it on/off and then decide if it was worth the effort of doing something unconventional.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
As above as far as i know, vvt via pmw would need a cam sensor.

Could always upgrade to 197 head, dephaser and vvt solenoid and run full sequential ign at the same time on standalone if you wanted a better setup.

Id just make sure the solenoid is working and get it setup on the dyno on 172 vvt.
 
  172 phase 1
If you were to PWM the solenoid, you'd need a cam senor for the ecu to be able to work out where the cam is, wouldn't you?

The true VVT on the 197/200's had cam sensors i think.
To do it proply you would, so ecu could then tell where it is. But theoretically if the solinoid can take a PWM signal it can take that off a graph of tps/rpm so it could still send a PWM signal based on perameters it does have and have the solinoid modulate the cam, it's just its effect of that modulation just wouldn't be fed back, it would just mechanically shift the inlet blindly to a PWM graph based on thous 2 parameters of rpm and tps position so theoretically it could.. if... the original vvt solinoid can take and function to a PWM signal.
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
To do it proply you would, so ecu could then tell where it is. But theoretically if the solinoid can take a PWM signal it can take that off a graph of tps/rpm so it could still send a PWM signal based on perameters it does have and have the solinoid modulate the cam, it's just its effect of that modulation just wouldn't be fed back, it would just mechanically shift the inlet blindly to a PWM graph based on thous 2 parameters of rpm and tps position so theoretically it could.. if... the original vvt solinoid can take and function to a PWM signal.

It would be something to try.

I've never heard of anyone trying it, so you could be the first 😅
 
  172 phase 1
It would be something to try.

I've never heard of anyone trying it, so you could be the first 😅

Well going to fit a flyback diode 1N4001 in parallel to the solenoid being ill be pulsing it and run the pwm graph and setup below see how it takes it.. seems the old solinoids flow is rather large so be like trying to pulse control flow on a very large tap so once at 50% pwm you should be at max position of the cam already so where see how it takes it come dyno day to get some transitional effect to its modulation👌..🤞
 

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Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
If you were to PWM the solenoid, you'd need a cam senor for the ecu to be able to work out where the cam is, wouldn't you?

The true VVT on the 197/200's had cam sensors i think.
It would still work as 'open loop' but you and @Brigsy are c**k on and I agree that it wouldn't work at all well. For a number of reasons, main reason imo is that with a sensor as oil pressure changes the cam position would stay static due to some closed loop type feedback from the sensor, also as oil changes temperature you will get the same outcome.

So what you will find is that for a given PWM % you will not get a consistent cam timing change. The outcome will be an inconsistent map. I would recommend that you don't do it at all and simply keep the ON/OFF.
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
Well going to fit a flyback diode 1N4001 in parallel to the solenoid being ill be pulsing it and run the pwm graph and setup below see how it takes it.. seems the old solinoids flow is rather large so be like trying to pulse control flow on a very large tap so once at 50% pwm you should be at max position of the cam already so where see how it takes it come dyno day to get some transitional effect to its modulation👌..🤞
Also if you did choose to do this you shouldn't select closed loop. What ECU is this? looks like the one from motorsport electronics?
 
  172 phase 1
Also if you did choose to do this you shouldn't select closed loop. What ECU is this? looks like the one from motorsport electronics?
Yes is an ME ecu. And to open loop aint an option on there is "closed or switched as only option" which is why im looking at basically a open loop setup run in closed loop mode..

as for your comment to oil pressure and oil temp variation of change.. fair comment and agreed I realise to without the cam sensor the system would be primitive in its accuracy which is why all later vvt's had that so could have larger more snap response of change within there vvt.
im aware to its function like this would be of very basic at best in doing this but to some form of transition effect with a slight veriation within the transitional reaction time in relation to temp i cant see would be that bad, rather than run no transitional effect at all I would have thought having some would be better? 🤔 (i have taken account for this and is why over load my veration of pwm and thus degrees is very little, and on the other axis is very gradual in its transition of slope progression over the higher rpm.)

It isn't like its seeing the major transition of oil viscosity or pressure from cold to hot engine change being its got to be upto temp anyways before running. Any incorrection towards afr through that slight change of cam veriational speed change will be picked up in the wideband trim anyways and im not running boost or high compression pistons so i wouldn't think it to be risk of det on the timing graph changing of anything dramatically in the shift of change.

For behaviour If anything as the engine got hotter the vvt rate of transitional change would become faster and sooner. So as I apply load it would go to full on advance sooner (same as if it was just on but with still abit of transitional effect feeding in there) and as it hit higher rpm it would raise hp and drop torque off abit more quickly when hot as be transitioning a fraction faster to turning the vvt down but would still have of transitional effect rather then just nothing.

So yeah my print out on dyno be slightly more torque favourable above 5k on first pull and alittle more hp favorable above 5k afew pulls later on dyno but wouldn't think would be really measurable within drivability over what you would get from the transitional benifits on the power within drivability is my thinking 🤔..

I maybe still wrong but felt to be worth ago.
 
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Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
Yes is an ME ecu. And to open loop aint an option on there is "closed or switched as only option" which is why im looking at basically a open loop setup run in closed loop mode..

as for your comment to oil pressure and oil temp variation of change.. fair comment and agreed I realise to without the cam sensor the system would be primitive in its accuracy which is why all later vvt's had that so could have larger more snap response of change within there vvt.
im aware to its function like this would be of very basic at best in doing this but to some form of transition effect with a slight veriation within the transitional reaction time in relation to temp i cant see would be that bad, rather than run no transitional effect at all I would have thought having some would be better? 🤔 (i have taken account for this and is why over load my veration of pwm and thus degrees is very little, and on the other axis is very gradual in its transition of slope progression over the higher rpm.)

It isn't like its seeing the major transition of oil viscosity or pressure from cold to hot engine change being its got to be upto temp anyways before running. Any incorrection towards afr through that slight change of cam veriational speed change will be picked up in the wideband trim anyways and im not running boost or high compression pistons so i wouldn't think it to be risk of det on the timing graph changing of anything dramatically in the shift of change.

For behaviour If anything as the engine got hotter the vvt rate of transitional change would become faster and sooner. So as I apply load it would go to full on advance sooner (same as if it was just on but with still abit of transitional effect feeding in there) and as it hit higher rpm it would raise hp and drop torque off abit more quickly when hot as be transitioning a fraction faster to turning the vvt down but would still have of transitional effect rather then just nothing.

So yeah my print out on dyno be slightly more torque favourable above 5k on first pull and alittle more hp favorable above 5k afew pulls later on dyno but wouldn't think would be really measurable within drivability over what you would get from the transitional benifits on the power within drivability is my thinking 🤔..

I maybe still wrong but felt to be worth ago.
TLDR; Honetly mate its your car so have fun doing whatever you are going to do, my solid advice is to just run ON/OFF because oil viscosity and pressure changes far more than I think you appreciate (y)

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I think the variation you are going to end up with is going to be MUCH greater than you appreciate. And yes oil viscosity changes a bunch with temperature, and oil temperature on the dyno will not be the same as on the road by a decent margin. The only way to run this open loop would be to have a correction table for oil temperature and oil pressure which would both require sensors and still wouldn't work nearly as well as a position sensor (which is why they did it for OEM).

Speak to whoever is mapping it and get their take on it. But from my own experience you want as much consistency as possible, anything inconsistent from the moment it was mapped means the tune has changed. While fuelling doesn't matter so much because a shift from an AFR of 14.5 to 14 likely doesn't matter, its also very easy to catch and sort with a lambda run in closed loop mode.

You can try this yourself by turning off closed loop idle and seeing how often you are at your target idle speed - it will be never btw. and the cam advance will drift far more than idle because its position is directly related to oil pressure. I suspect what you will find is 50% duty will sometimes be (lets say) cam fully advanced and other times see the cam hardly advance at all. Furthermore the solenoid has not been designed for PWM so you will have to workout what frequency it is happiest running at all whilst having no idea if the cam has even moved.

If I were mapping this I would ignore everything you are doing right now and just set it up as ON/OFF and do the runs to determine switch over point.... there really isn't enough time to be faffing about chasing inconsistencies during a dyno session unless its development work - or if your tuner has already done the ground work and can categorically state this will work well (already has tables to chuck at it).

This is also why whenever we did a turbo car we would either use closed loop boost control or an external spring/ball regulator - its a nightmare having 10psi of boost one run and 14 another. At the end of the run you set an overboost threshold (to protect the engine from divvys) and a week later you have a customer back in moaning the car is spluttering on boost all the time - because suddenly the open loop PWM value you set is not hitting the same target it was on the dyno and instead hits boost cut intermittently.
 
  172 phase 1
Yeah I get what your saying and it's me mapping it for myself. I'm borrowing a mates rollers to do It with on days there closed. All the main map etc I've already done with the on/off switch set vvt of the base map. I just felt to try this being nothing ventured nothing gained to refine it and try it before and whilst finding if not best switched.. 👌

I'm aware there was going to be fluctuation which is where it was always saying to this would be of primitive setup if it paid off (as you say this is why OEM all have that additional sensor set to allow correction I'm not disputing that.) And with VVT on both cams of most later cars though's fluctuation would be even greater, but being this was single cam and a mild veriability anyways i felt it worth a try.


I've now had chance to try this and I can confirm the valve did take to being fed PWM once nailed the frequency and got it to function in that manner fair consistant. As confirmed there was fluctuation, little more than I exspected granted (and as you said) but wasn't hideous by the end of an afternoon of tinkering with it. You would have transition which i got nicely but then after few pulls the transition would fade out and be same as to if it was simple on. Let it back down for abit and cool, the transition would return then when hot would fade out to being of simply on again.

In the end the best stable setup I could get from the PWM was still not as good a curve as to refinement from switched which from the basemap setup of 1450-8000rpm. Refined down best to being ran at 1700-6750rpm on my setup.

So yes you was right but was a fun day and a good afternoon none the less.. nothing tried nothing gained 👌😊
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
Yeah I get what your saying and it's me mapping it for myself. I'm borrowing a mates rollers to do It with on days there closed. All the main map etc I've already done with the on/off switch set vvt of the base map. I just felt to try this being nothing ventured nothing gained to refine it and try it before and whilst finding if not best switched.. 👌

I'm aware there was going to be fluctuation which is where it was always saying to this would be of primitive setup if it paid off (as you say this is why OEM all have that additional sensor set to allow correction I'm not disputing that.) And with VVT on both cams of most later cars though's fluctuation would be even greater, but being this was single cam and a mild veriability anyways i felt it worth a try.


I've now had chance to try this and I can confirm the valve did take to being fed PWM once nailed the frequency and got it to function in that manner fair consistant. As confirmed there was fluctuation, little more than I exspected granted (and as you said) but wasn't hideous by the end of an afternoon of tinkering with it. You would have transition which i got nicely but then after few pulls the transition would fade out and be same as to if it was simple on. Let it back down for abit and cool, the transition would return then when hot would fade out to being of simply on again.

In the end the best stable setup I could get from the PWM was still not as good a curve as to refinement from switched which from the basemap setup of 1450-8000rpm. Refined down best to being ran at 1700-6750rpm on my setup.

So yes you was right but was a fun day and a good afternoon none the less.. nothing tried nothing gained 👌😊
Awesome, thanks for the update and glad you had fun.

Sorry I didn't realise you were mapping it, no harm in having a good play if you are doing it but expensive when you are paying someone else to play using your time/money/car.
 
  172 phase 1
Yeah I get what your saying and it's me mapping it for myself. I'm borrowing a mates rollers to do It with on days there closed. All the main map etc I've already done with the on/off switch set vvt of the base map. I just felt to try this being nothing ventured nothing gained to refine it and try it before and whilst finding if not best switched.. 👌

I'm aware there was going to be fluctuation which is where it was always saying to this would be of primitive setup if it paid off (as you say this is why OEM all have that additional sensor set to allow correction I'm not disputing that.) And with VVT on both cams of most later cars though's fluctuation would be even greater, but being this was single cam and a mild veriability anyways i felt it worth a try.


I've now had chance to try this and I can confirm the valve did take to being fed PWM once nailed the frequency and got it to function in that manner fair consistant. As confirmed there was fluctuation, little more than I exspected granted (and as you said) but wasn't hideous by the end of an afternoon of tinkering with it. You would have transition which i got nicely but then after few pulls the transition would fade out and be same as to if it was simple on. Let it back down for abit and cool, the transition would return then when hot would fade out to being of simply on again.

In the end the best stable setup I could get from the PWM was still not as good a curve as to refinement from switched which from the basemap setup of 1450-8000rpm. Refined down best to being ran at 1700-6750rpm on my setup.

So yes you was right but was a fun day and a good afternoon none the less.. nothing tried nothing gained 👌😊
Final setup after improving the exhaust and intake flow have managed to get a peak of 228bhp out of it, with a vvt set of 1800 - 7750rpm so yeah right to the end in simply on/off 👌.
 

gambit

ClioSport Club Member
  182 Trophy
Sounds like you had a good result. Rather than start a new thread. I might as well ask it here.

If using a 182 loom and ecu whats the best way to go about using the 197 head with its dephaser, vvt solenoid etc. Is it best to just run a standalone ecu or to use the 182 dephaser and vvt solenoid combination and map accordingly on the stock ecu?
 
  172 phase 1
Sounds like you had a good result. Rather than start a new thread. I might as well ask it here.

If using a 182 loom and ecu whats the best way to go about using the 197 head with its dephaser, vvt solenoid etc. Is it best to just run a standalone ecu or to use the 182 dephaser and vvt solenoid combination and map accordingly on the stock ecu?
So for I personally used the standard loom, pin swapped it around so I could run the me360 ecu to give me ability to set the vvt on/off rpm.
Fitted the 197 cams into the 172 head timed the cams to an additional 8 degree's on inlet whilst still also using the standard vvt dephaser and solenoid.
 

TheCAB

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio Cup 172
Sounds like you had a good result. Rather than start a new thread. I might as well ask it here.

If using a 182 loom and ecu whats the best way to go about using the 197 head with its dephaser, vvt solenoid etc. Is it best to just run a standalone ecu or to use the 182 dephaser and vvt solenoid combination and map accordingly on the stock ecu?
Don't forget the 197 head is not just a straight swap as it need to be modified to work on a 172 block.
 

gambit

ClioSport Club Member
  182 Trophy
Don't forget the 197 head is not just a straight swap as it need to be modified to work on a 172 block.
Yes i have manage to have the an extra hole drilled and tapped to accommodate the pulley already.
i-TgQcLKC-L.jpg
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
I don't know anything about the 197 but seem to recall the VVT is constantly variable, unlike the 172/182 which is simply ON/OFF. If that's the case there will be a position sensor used for feedback, OEM might just use the cam position sensor.

Some after market ECU's will properly support this, others with force you to use simple ON/OFF. I have to say that after mucking about with this a while back I didn't see much benefit of continuously variable VVT... in principal it should allow you to get the perfect cam advance across the entire rev range in practice simple ON/OFF was good enough. I think we saw a few ft/lbs in the midrange (the area around the ON/OFF dip you get), certainly not as much as 10 ft/lbs... perhaps it makes a bigger difference to emissions 🤷‍♂️
 
  172 phase 1
Agree I mucked around towards seeing if i got worthwhile gains from running constantly veriable over on/off and frankly saw just as good results from the simple on/off type setup if your cams are timed right.
 
  Megane F7R
Yes i have manage to have the an extra hole drilled and tapped to accommodate the pulley already.
View attachment 1658902
Who did this for you ? Im now building an engine (1*2 block 197 head/cams) so will need this doing
If I recall correctly you can run the 1*2 dephaser pulley and solenoid on stock loom and ecu (im going early P1 setup)
I am also forging my block with Wossner 12:5:1 pistons and rods. Head will be ported / flowed, single piece valves and Catcam springs fitted with either the stock 197 cams or some Catcams. Pretty sure i can run the 197 cans at the 8degree timing still as im using a 182 block. If anyone knows different please let me know :D
 


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