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172 vs sapphire cossie 4x4

Had a go with a sapphire cossie today off the lights, road conditions were a bit damp but managed to get a good start.

pretty level all the way up to about 80-85 then I decided to back off.

I was 2 up he was on his own.

Looked like he was going for it as front end of his car was coming up on acceleration.

Do you think he was playing or not?

Looked standard and was in mint condition
  320d M Sport

Hmm, i would have expected hed win as:

1) You had 2 passengers

2) it was wet

3) he has 4WD

if all was even on a dry road it might be even then, but not under those circumstances>=... i may be wrong??

sapph cossie should whoop your ass mate sorry to say. They are great cars though but the 4wd version is the slowest of the lot, hitting 0-60 in about 6.6 seconds.

220 bhp at 6,000 rpm (6,250rpm with cat)
214 lb/ft at 3,500 rpm / 174.6 bhp per tonne
  BMW 320d Sport

The Saphhires arent as quick as the other Cossies in my experience. They run 0-60 somewhere in the 6s dont they?

Raced loads of Saphire cossies at York and only been beaten by tuned ones, in standard form they arent that fast, and the guys who have been to York Raceway can vouch for this.

Tim O

Ive raced loads of rear wheel drive ones. Most of them cane me because they arent standard - my mate has got 280 bhp and that it quite mildly tuned and over 60 mph just leaves me. I had a go with what I think must have been a std. one, me in mine, him and his mate. from 40 mph 2nd gear he didnt overtake me till !30 ish on a disused air strip ;-) Then round twisties and stuff it was pretty even.

Quote: Originally posted by pete bann on 04 January 2003

sapph cossie should whoop your ass mate sorry to say. They are great cars though but the 4wd version is the slowest of the lot, hitting 0-60 in about 6.6 seconds.

220 bhp at 6,000 rpm (6,250rpm with cat)
214 lb/ft at 3,500 rpm / 174.6 bhp per tonne
  williams and trophy

that means i can cane a saff cos too??????????????


nah mate doubt it the 4wd ones are quik when tweeked, but the 2wd 1s are just too much when heavily modded. they seemm to like laying rubber in all the gears lol

no traction-no speed
  Laguna 2, Westfield

standard ones are 6.6 to 60, and will hit 150, speedo goes to 170:D

If he had done a proper launch/or was trying hard, i don;t think you would have been pretty level as you say the road was damp so the 4x4 would have put him miles ahead would it not :)

standered cossies are very rare these days but they aint that great when there standered, none of them are paticularly fast but as soon as you mod them they are monsters and sometimes you can get a shock when it looks like your racing a bin and turns out to be a supercar in disguise i imagine a 172 or a williams could keep up with a standered cossie, as the performance isnt too different, in the dry of course

I think the advantage of 4wd would have whooped a fwd car (being the owner of both an AWD and fwd car).


Yeah, I know what youre all saying.

Can relate to your comments scoobyP1 many years ago when I had a bog std 5 GT turbo Mk2, an original 2wd cossie pulled up next to me at the lights completely covered in grey primer. I looked at it and thought what a shed! lights changed and that was that, he peed on me big style!!

Hence the mrs wet herself laughing!


Stu 172
  CTR EK9 turbo

Well heres a car that ive had many races with. Ive raced a sapphire cosworth in 2nd gear to higher speeds - over took him quite nicely with the owner not looking very happy. Next time i see the car he has his bonnet open wondering how he got toasted!

I raced a 3-door Sierra cosworth (white with Astraboy written in the rear window) off the lights and we were totally even ( i had my group N ecu in then), he looked over and smiled. I presume his only mods to be a dump valve? as that was all i could tell/hear,and an exhaust.

My friend with the pulsar is friends with a guy who owns a heavily modded White Sierra 3 door RS500 replica with a lot of bhp, it may be quick, but only for like 10 hours, the other 14 hours its having its rear Dif replaced or something else thats gone bang.

I played with some appearing-standard sapphires down the hogsback and they couldnt leave me if anything i was realing them in.

Believe it or not - ill let you borrow my 172 and you can race one and see for yourselves. They sure arent that quick - unless modded and then they become very unreliable so ive heard.

Simon, your making a few sweeping generalisations there, Ive spent the last few months looking into them seriousally as my next car.

Remember a typical 2wd Spah is now 13 years old. I think you will find ANY 13yr old car driven regularly will have more than average instences of things going wrong (eg electrics, and other things that are just general wear and tear....). 3drs are even older...

Upto 350bhp (Stage 3 is 330bhp so just over that, i.e. green injectors) you can I believe if done correctally have a very reliable car. The reason why you hear of unreliable Cosworths is that people buy one, then modify the engine, often with 80,000+ miles on. You really need a rebuild if your going for average to big power. Infact I wouldnt even buy a Stage 3 Cossie if it hadnt had a rebuild in the past 5 - 7000 miles, and had a massive folder of paperwork and reciepts to go with it. BUT remember they are turbocharged engines, and any turbo engine that has had at least a fairly hard life will need a rebuild by that time.

Back to the topic of Cossies Vs Clios. Ive been out as a passenger in Craggys Williams a while back, and Ive driven a valver a few times. Ive also driven a 2wd Saph on a Stage 1 (270ish bhp), and Im sorry but its laughable that you can even think a Clio will keep up with it. The Cossie even makes an Impreza FEEL slow (note NOT actually beat it in every case, but drive both one after the other and the Impreza feels slow and to be honest boring, its just too smooth).

In standard trim they are nothing mega. But pound for pound, I believe there is no other car you can tune as well (in terms of raw power and reliability) as a Cosworth. And go and try and find a standard 2wd Saph, theres not many knocking round.....

Have a look at this guys Cossie, I think when its on full belt on its highest boost setting, it gets 3mpg! :eek: Take a look at the comparison tables against other cars....
  CTR EK9 turbo

I didnt say my clio could keep up with a 270 bhp TinDuc I said it could keep up with a standard one, and from experience Ive done this. Its obvious that if you mod it then itl blow a clio away. With regards to reliability. My friend was looking into buying something really fast and fairly cheap. He was very interested in cosworths but had many friends who found them very unreliable and we always never used to see these monsters as they were often broken down (usually a blown up diff). He decided to go for a pulsar and hes modded that a fair bit and it blows away most things. Ive never met anyone who thrashes their car as much as he does, and when i say thrash, i mean THRASH with a capital T! hes a serious nutter when it comes to driving, if he spots a possible race hell be off - not let the car warm up, just boots it after the victim. The car is driven to the ragged edge EVERY time he drives it and the only problem hes had with it has been at about 50,000 miles a burnt out clutch, oh and a knackered HT lead as water got in from where he removed a seal from under one of the vents under the bonnet that shouldnt have been removed!

Im sure theyre very cheap to mod and fix etc. But id be wary of them in this light as i drive very hard a lot of the time and ive paid the price for buying a Renault (never again!) as its terribly unreliable and cant take the thrashing really - although im impressed with my clutch, cant believe it still works! I looked at many cars prior to buying my 172 and had the opportunity of buying a rear-wheel drive Sapphire with a claimed 400 bhp which had apparently had a fully re-built engine to race spec - sounded a bit iffy, but it cost £4000, now dont get me wrong but i believe this is cheap for a sierra cosworth! ive seen 1990 age cosworths going for £5000+ with a fair few miles on the clock. It was for sale a while back in conjunction with his Supra Twin Turbo which was an auto and was a Top Secret Special claiming 700 bhp, £20,000 for the supra and you get a free Sierra Sapphire Cosworth. IMHO i wouldnt buy one. But thats only my opinion.

Yes you will quite easily see pre 1990 Saph Cossies going for 5k plus. There are a few stuck away in garages in fantastic condition, that only come out on the odd sunny weekend, owned by enthusiasts that can afford to drive and insure a third car only a few times a year. I remember as four star was been phased out me and a few mates were at a show. We saw a son and dad with a very nice looking standar motor, we asked them if they filled up with LRP or super unleaded, the son went off and asked the dad, and he said they only filled up the car once a year, so he wasnt sure! PMSL! Even an every day driven 3 door will go for 6k plus if its in a good nick. RS500s go for upto 15k, but then again there were only 500 made, and they have the T4 turbo, 8 injector setup (in but not wired up as standard) a daddy intercooler, hard as nails block etc....

RE your point about when you were going to buy that 400bhp one. Id be VERY cautious of owners estimates. Only proof Id take would be a RR printout, and/or the paperwork and word from a RESPECTED tuner who built it.

End of the day they are never ever going to be the most reliable car in the world. But if you bought one, and gave it a full engine rebuild and tuned it at the same time, it would be as reliable as you could possibly get it. Unfortunentally a lot of people buy one, not knowing its exact history, then just tune it. Then the engine cant take the strain and POP!

To be fair a Jap car is always going to be more reliable, its newer and its built by the Japanese! LMAO

Ive got a video of him racing a Porsche on a duel carrageway, and it just leaves it for dead, and he hardly revs it in any gear hes in. His engine whilst it has incredible BHP, is designed to be more tourqey than anything

I doubt Sappire cossies do 150mph, my dads midly tuned alfa gtv left one for dead on the M11 a few years back (in 5th and 6th) and the alfa did 155 max. Untuned ones would probably be struggling to get all 220bhp considering their age.

Tuned ones fair enough, but whats the point in comparing. I would never get one..dated..boring looking..FORDS..dont handle that well either and the amount of things which go wrong... Same for most older cars really, you jump into them a few years later and theyre not so good as you remember

clios rule ;)