Any gas safe installers on here? Vaillant flue question

[Touring_Rob]

Hi all,

Wondering if there are any gas safe fitters on here?

Just about to have my roof replaced (tiles etc), this summer I want to install a boiler (Vaillant Ecotec plus 630 system) in the loft. I will want to get a gas safe installer in to do parts of the work - mainly hooking up gas and inspecting the rest of my work for sign off as there will be a non vented cylinder also.

In the meantime I've bought a pitched rood Vaillant flue kit which I want the roofing guys to do while they are up there, I understand there are restrictions on the maximum flue length but are there any on the minimum length for a pitched roof? I would like to get the flue kit in the right place so it can go straight up and out of the roof - leaving the actual flue hook up to the installer. I would imagine the flue would end up at 1M minimum from boiler exit to top (above roof) and may end up closer to 1.5 depending on what height the boiler is hung at.

Current plan is to mount boiler on the part wall next to an unused chimney stack. I intend to screw 6x4 lengths to the wall, then 1/2" ply to space out from the wall. Are installers happy with plasterboard as the fire proof layer or would it need to be something specific such as fire rated plasterboard or a concrete backer board?

Lastly, in an idea world I would like to hang the boiler and fit all the water pipes. I would likely run the gas pipe but not solder or connect (leaving that to the installer). If the work was neatly done and to regs and I was happy for the installer to replace any of my work they were unhappy with would you (generally speaking) be happy to sign off and inspect on such a job? I can imagine some DIY installs are a bit of a nightmare so some installers might shy away from such jobs?


Cheers!

Rob

 

[Flat Eric]

Back in my days 'on the tools' we wouldn't have entertained that at all really. I'm sure you may be competent but the guy who you wam tto sign the work off won't know that. It will be a minefield for them.

I assume you are doing it this way to reduce cost. Have you had some quotes from people for them to do the work?

 

[davo172]

You will end up paying more in the end can't see anyone signing it off not worth there risk they won't be intrested at all.
Also if you sell people will want to see an invoice for install really and valliant warranty will be unsupported if you installed it yourself.

 

[gez 172]

As above - when it comes to gas and electricity, you have to pay the full price to get it signed off. They won’t entertain putting their name against it if they haven’t done the work.

 

[gez 172]

EDIT: I completely agree with them wanting to do all the work too. Imagine buying a house where a Karen has been installing boilers herself or doing 1st fix electrics. Gas scares the s**t out me even when a professional has installed everything.

When you’ve witnessed a local house blow up and take half the street out with it, it’s enough for you to not want to scrimp and have a go yourself.

Leave it to the professional and qualified.

 

[iimushroomzii]

I've done similar in all 3 of my houses, ran all new central heating pipes, rads etc and mounted the boiler on the wall and let my plumber do the rest. You shouldn't touch any gas pipework just leave it upto the plumber, and let the plumber connect the last meter or so of all pipes to the boiler. It saved me a fortune doing it myself, my plumber only charged 150 to do most the rest but that's mates rates.
I'd suggest finding a friendly plumber and ask him what he's happy with you doing before you crack on.

 

[davo172]

I've done similar in all 3 of my houses, ran all new central heating pipes, rads etc and mounted the boiler on the wall and let my plumber do the rest. You shouldn't touch any gas pipework just leave it upto the plumber, and let the plumber connect the last meter or so of all pipes to the boiler. It saved me a fortune doing it myself, my plumber only charged 150 to do most the rest but that's mates rates.
I'd suggest finding a friendly plumber and ask him what he's happy with you doing before you crack on.

Is your mate "smithy"?

 

[gez 172]

I just think it leaves such a grey area.
What if you get issues with the boiler/pipe work or a leak in the house. You can’t just ring up the plumber and say come sort your work out, he’ll just tell you that it’s your fault and you’ve done something wrong your end.
The money you’ve saved then starts getting eaten into when he’s charging you for him to come and sort the issues out. If you’ve paid for the full job, then any issues thereafter are the plumbers problem to come and sort without cost.

Just not worth the hassle for saving £500-1k IMO. Get it done properly and sleep well at night.

I’ve seen so many mates have a go, especially that crap push fit plumbing.

 

[davo172]

I just think it leaves such a grey area.
What if you get issues with the boiler/pipe work or a leak in the house. You can’t just ring up the plumber and say come sort your work out, he’ll just tell you that it’s your fault and you’ve done something wrong your end.
The money you’ve saved then starts getting eaten into when he’s charging you for him to come and sort the issues out. If you’ve paid for the full job, then any issues thereafter are the plumbers problem to come and sort without cost.

Just not worth the hassle for saving £500-1k IMO. Get it done properly and sleep well at night.

I’ve seen so many mates have a go, especially that crap push fit plumbing.

Sums it up perfectly

 

[Touring_Rob]

Back in my days 'on the tools' we wouldn't have entertained that at all really. I'm sure you may be competent but the guy who you wam tto sign the work off won't know that. It will be a minefield for them.

I assume you are doing it this way to reduce cost. Have you had some quotes from people for them to do the work?

Hi there,

Not really to save cost as the main reason, but that is a nice added benefit. This is going to be a whole house job, everything is being removed. My main motivation is because I weirdly enjoy plumbing but also due to the convenience. I will be working around builders at points and can do one room/area at a time then another a few days later while it would make more sense for a plumber to do everything in one hit.

Also, I've seen some really shoddy professional work, I have loads of electrical mates but no plumbers! so its hard for me to find someone I know is good from the get go without seeing former work, the reality is that I have as much time as needed to do a neat job where someone being paid wouldn't. So while im no where near as quick I am very neat. Should probably say I've done this in a couple of property's now but my friendly gas safe installer (who was happy to inspect and sign off my work) has joined the military.

More importantly (the rest was for interest) could someone let me know if there is anything to pay special attention to with regard to the vertical and short flue going through a pitched roof. The boiler will be sitting between the roof and an unused chimney breast with approximately 50cm gap either side. Want to get it to a reasonable height so underside pipes are nice and accessible.

Rob

 

[Touring_Rob]

EDIT: I completely agree with them wanting to do all the work too. Imagine buying a house where a Karen has been installing boilers herself or doing 1st fix electrics. Gas scares the s**t out me even when a professional has installed everything.

When you’ve witnessed a local house blow up and take half the street out with it, it’s enough for you to not want to scrimp and have a go yourself.

Leave it to the professional and qualified.

What are you on about. Im an electronic engineer not a Karen, you would have to do something horrifically wrong to do that.

Is this going to be another Clio cambelt job where someone says "hey how do you do it" and everyone says "take it to a specialist"?

I get the points and concern - I will be plumbing the house (I am actually wiring it up to but won't be fitting the fuse board) I will leave the pumber to hang the boiler and as @iimushroomzii has suggested (good idea) will likely leave the last foot of pipe for the plumber to do also (together with the flue). I will have already had the boiler on the wall, cut all pipe to length and test fitted the flue - then remove it all for them to re-do (just with everything ready to go for them), if they don't like what I've done I'm happy to pay them to redo it.

At that point they would have soldered up the entire run of gas pipe, hung the boiler on the wall, hooked up all the pipes, done the flue..... they have effectively installed the boiler. Whats the problem?

 

[Touring_Rob]

I just think it leaves such a grey area.
What if you get issues with the boiler/pipe work or a leak in the house. You can’t just ring up the plumber and say come sort your work out, he’ll just tell you that it’s your fault and you’ve done something wrong your end.
The money you’ve saved then starts getting eaten into when he’s charging you for him to come and sort the issues out. If you’ve paid for the full job, then any issues thereafter are the plumbers problem to come and sort without cost.

Just not worth the hassle for saving £500-1k IMO. Get it done properly and sleep well at night.

I’ve seen so many mates have a go, especially that crap push fit plumbing.

If there is a leak in the house thats OBVISOULY down to me isn't it I'm not that much of a mong that I would assume a plumber would take on the liability for my work lol. Same as when you have a boiler hooked up to an existing install. Are you a gas safe installer? Im not touching anything gas side here and would pay for the system to be inspected and serviced yearly as normal.

 

[Touring_Rob]

I've done similar in all 3 of my houses, ran all new central heating pipes, rads etc and mounted the boiler on the wall and let my plumber do the rest. You shouldn't touch any gas pipework just leave it upto the plumber, and let the plumber connect the last meter or so of all pipes to the boiler. It saved me a fortune doing it myself, my plumber only charged 150 to do most the rest but that's mates rates.
I'd suggest finding a friendly plumber and ask him what he's happy with you doing before you crack on.

Thanks very much for that. Sums up what I have done in the past and what I hope to do here well. My problem is that I don't have any gas safe contacts anymore. If I start calling up places I know they will not like the sound of it. I think explaining it as you have done above would be a good start.

 

[Touring_Rob]

But for now I just want to get the flue kit into the roof while scaffolding is up and its accessible. I want to do it properly so it doesn't have to be redone later (that would be a real pain).

Does anyone know of any potential problems with going vertically up, out of boiler and through the roof - total flue length will be 1meter ish. Boiler install manual suggests this will be fine however fitters might have experienced problems not covered in the manual?

Also - what will an installer be happy with regarding a fire proof layer, is plaster board with a 30min fire rating acceptable?

 

[iimushroomzii]

Is your mate "smithy"?

Why?

I just think it leaves such a grey area.
What if you get issues with the boiler/pipe work or a leak in the house. You can’t just ring up the plumber and say come sort your work out, he’ll just tell you that it’s your fault and you’ve done something wrong your end.
The money you’ve saved then starts getting eaten into when he’s charging you for him to come and sort the issues out. If you’ve paid for the full job, then any issues thereafter are the plumbers problem to come and sort without cost.

Just not worth the hassle for saving £500-1k IMO. Get it done properly and sleep well at night.

I’ve seen so many mates have a go, especially that crap push fit plumbing.

You're completely wrong here. I do a better job of it than most plumbers I know. And there's nothing wrong with pushfit plumbing, it has its place. What do you think is installed in 99% of new builds across the country?
Obviously if you get a leak it's your own fault, but do things properly and you won't get leaks. Any problems with the boiler are covered under the boiler warranty as long as you get it serviced yearly. Plenty of cash to be saved if you know what you're doing.

 

[iimushroomzii]

Is your mate "smithy"?

f**k me, I just realised my plumbers name is actually Kev Smith .

 

[gez 172]

@iimushroomzii push fit is rubbish. It’s just a method that is faster/cheaper and will last the duration of the new build warranty. Then after that? Who knows.

A proper job is copper piping.

This is also another reason I won’t go near a new build.

 

[Touring_Rob]

@iimushroomzii push fit is rubbish. It’s just a method that is faster/cheaper and will last the duration of the new build warranty. Then after that? Who knows.

A proper job is copper piping.

This is also another reason I won’t go near a new build.

Are you a plumber or gas safe installer mate?

 

[iimushroomzii]

@iimushroomzii push fit is rubbish. It’s just a method that is faster/cheaper and will last the duration of the new build warranty. Then after that? Who knows.

A proper job is copper piping.

This is also another reason I won’t go near a new build.

Please explain to me why it's rubbish? I've seen more failed/leaking solder/compression joints than I've ever seen pushfit leaks. The only time I've had a hep2o joint fail was in an empty house at minus 10 when it froze, the pipe was fine, it also froze inside a solid brass bath tap and split it open. Imagine the mess if it had been copper pipes frozen.

 

[sburrell93]

I had a boiler installed in my loft last year. I've not measured but the flue is probably shorter than 1m and there were no issues with that.

Things to watch for with a vertical flue though is proximity to the likes of windows, other flues, vertical structure. They also need to extend a certain height above the pitched roof to account for the chance of snow accumulation. 400mm diagonally and 300mm vertically to the air inlet I think. I'd assume the flue kit is designed to meet that though. It's all usually in the installation manual as well.

 

[jam.]

@iimushroomzii push fit is rubbish. It’s just a method that is faster/cheaper and will last the duration of the new build warranty. Then after that? Who knows.

A proper job is copper piping.

This is also another reason I won’t go near a new build.

What about copper push fit? Is that good and bad?

I get what you're saying, but pushfit/hep2o has its merits and unless installed by a moron is usually pretty decent.

 

[iimushroomzii]

What about copper push fit? Is that good and bad?

I get what you're saying, but pushfit/hep2o has its merits and unless installed by a moron is usually pretty decent.

I've never used copper pushfit, ans not really seen it used so couldn't comment. I've used copper into hep2o fittings and never had a problem with that either

 

[Clio182mike]

My 2p worth from working in and running my own p&h branch is fit copper where you can on heating systems. It's tried tested and much better than push fit. Push fit is for contractors who want to smash new builds up in weeks. Sure it will work but it's won't last nowhere near as long as copper.

Also you will probably find that most gas safe engineers will not come just to connect up the gas/commission the boiler unless they know you and trust your skills as it's their arse on the line morally and legally.

I don't believe its illegal to fit a new boiler etc in your own home but it's the connecting up and doing the benchmark book that you will come unstuck on.

Leave it to them i say.

 

[clio tyres]

But for now I just want to get the flue kit into the roof while scaffolding is up and its accessible. I want to do it properly so it doesn't have to be redone later (that would be a real pain).

Does anyone know of any potential problems with going vertically up, out of boiler and through the roof - total flue length will be 1meter ish. Boiler install manual suggests this will be fine however fitters might have experienced problems not covered in the manual?

Also - what will an installer be happy with regarding a fire proof layer, is plaster board with a 30min fire rating acceptable?

@5:01

 

[Touring_Rob]

Just spoke to a fitter who was reccomended by a mate.

@5:01

Haha, yes - fortunately the loft is fully boarded and well lit if they ask for a walk way though they are getting the door.

 

[Touring_Rob]

Just spoke to a fitter who was recommended by a mate. Has said it was all absolutely fine, couldn't understand the fuss. He said "If I am hooking the boiler up, running all the gas from entry into building upto boiler, installing the flue connection and doing the signoff then I have fitted it".

Commented that with an unvented cylinder he would like all pipe work to be visible and tidy so he can do proper checks on it. Also recommended that I hook the system upto the mains (bypass cylinder) so I could check for leaks before he came.

Sounded like a very sensible chap, made the point that if he didn't like anything he would simple not sign off.

In my head his response was exactly what I was asking for - someone to essentially install a boiler and nothing more. Not asking anyone to take on liability for any of my work.

 

[Clio182mike]

Just spoke to a fitter who was recommended by a mate. Has said it was all absolutely fine, couldn't understand the fuss. He said "If I am hooking the boiler up, running all the gas from entry into building upto boiler, installing the flue connection and doing the signoff then I have fitted it".

Commented that with an unvented cylinder he would like all pipe work to be visible and tidy so he can do proper checks on it. Also recommended that I hook the system upto the mains (bypass cylinder) so I could check for leaks before he came.

Sounded like a very sensible chap, made the point that if he didn't like anything he would simple not sign off.

In my head his response was exactly what I was asking for - someone to essentially install a boiler and nothing more. Not asking anyone to take on liability for any of my work.

Sounds fair enough. You can get the manual for the ecotec on their website which has maximum lengths and spacing etc. From memory you can go up 4m in a straight line using the standard 100mm system but just double check. If you want to go just 1m then you only need the standard vertical flue kit and a 500mm extension. Don't forget the pitched roof flashing which is an extra.

 

[Touring_Rob]

Thanks very much. Yes I have the pitched roof flashing and vertical flue kit on order - should be with me tomorrow. All a bit of a rush as I wasn't expecting roofers to start until Feb!

 

[Flat Eric]

You'll get a template with the boiler usually so that will help when marking out where the flue will go etc.

Just triple check the regs on boiler location relative to roof and length above roof.
Measure twice cut once as well

Also just to add.
I use both copper and speed fit, depends on the application. Often used a 1-4 manifold on the end of a 22mm run on a landing to drop feed downstairs radiators with 10mm plastic hidden in the walls.