Rear camber shims make the rear seem lively at normal speeds?

[len_beach]

I fitted some of Eds -1.5 rear shims a few weeks ago.

I drove the car tonight and at normal speeds the rear seems very lively. I didn't push I as I have jacketed rear calipers but is this a feature of the smaller contact patch due to the camber?

Alternatively, I think my brother could have fitted the offside as -1.5 toe in rather than camber. Fool!

 

[Spinksy]

double check the directions the shims are fitted mate and make sure all bolts etc are torqued properly

when you say lively do you mean twitchy? (more likely to kick out?)

 

[Bobby.]

I've got eds 10mm spacers with 1degree camber and I've noticed....fook all difference lol. I only done it for looks though tbh.

Sounds like the spacers have been fitted wrong or something like that, defo shouldn't be twitchy.

 

[len_beach]

I did one side which was definitely right. I think my brother bashed it on and left the offside rear pointing inwards. Tool.

Leeds_182 followed my mate driving it the other day and referred to it as the crab. Lol.

It does feel like it could flick out. No pulling just loose.

 

[Spinksy]

I did one side which was definitely right. I think my brother bashed it on and left the offside rear pointing inwards. Tool.

Leeds_182 followed my mate driving it the other day and referred to it as the crab. Lol.

It does feel like it could flick out. No pulling just loose.

yeah if it is crabbing I would bet that the other shim is fitted in the wrong direction tbh mate...

have a look and make sure it is fitted the right way

let us know once it is sorted

 

[Kieran..]

You would defiantly notice if your brother had put it in a toe in rather than negative camber, just dropping the car from the jack it would be noticable

 

[clio37]

Quick jump in. Just had camber rear spacers fitted today 1 deg and front camber bolts. All looks the part!! And it feels better in the corners but setting off hard or slightly adventurous it seems twitchy and unstable making the steering feel light also. But in the bendd its sound.
Do I have too much camber on the front making it twitchy in a straight line?

 

[rdoxenham]

Ben you got any pictures of the -1.5 fitted please? Thanks!

 

[MG cup]

That's what you have to figure out, camber and tow are a trade of for straight line stability & speed against higher cornering speeds.

This is why suspension is such a black art, you steal performance from one area to give gains in another.

I take it you never adjusted tracking after fitting the camber bolts?

 

[Cup_Phil]

I feared this would happen

Waaaaay too many people slapping camber on for the looks
It helps cornering grip but you reduce grip in a straight line as obviously only part of the wheel is touching the ground

Wonder how long it will be till someone spins at 80 with -3.5 camber all round lol

 

[Tony Hunter]

I feared this would happen

Waaaaay too many people slapping camber on for the looks
It helps cornering grip but you reduce grip in a straight line as obviously only part of the wheel is touching the ground

Wonder how long it will be till someone spins at 80 with -3.5 camber all round lol

This.

Also you should be able to tell just by looking at it.

 

[clio37]

Garage did the job for me while I was at work + two track rods and a cv boot. So I would imagine tracking and so on is done (hope) might get the front camber reduced tomorrow then instead of having it on max
Didnt think upto 2 degree would be so noticeable will halve it

 

[dmallett]

Surprising how much difference it makes, when me an Rhys Beal fitted my AST top mounts we set it all to max camber untill i got it setup. It danced about fairly on the back roads,

 

[BIGASH]

Get them to check the rear camber and toe as it could be the case the spacer has been machined/installed incorrectly.

Personally I agree with some of the others I wouldn't f**k about with rear camber until you actually need it. I left my camber shims off until I was working the car hard enough to require extra camber.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Do the people saying "didn't think -2 degrees would be so noticeable" know that Clios come with -1.5 or -1.75 at the rear anyway, so if you add -2degrees you're running more camber than a race car

 

[Tony Hunter]

Do the people saying "didn't think -2 degrees would be so noticeable" know that Clios come with -1.5 or -1.75 at the rear anyway, so if you add -2degrees you're running more camber than a race car

I did say this in the rear camber thread light years ago. But what do I know eh.

 

[Flat Eric]

Do the people saying "didn't think -2 degrees would be so noticeable" know that Clios come with -1.5 or -1.75 at the rear anyway, so if you add -2degrees you're running more camber than a race car

Well I've learnt something new today

 

[Greeny.]

Ye my standard rears are -1.46 & -1.03.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I did say this in the rear camber thread light years ago. But what do I know eh.

I know lol - I tried too

I even suggested Ed didn't make anything other than zero camber and -1 camber because I can't see any reason why anyone would ever need more even on a race car.
People don't listen though and will just get upset when they end up in a tree

 

[MG cup]

I know lol - I tried too

I even suggested Ed didn't make anything other than zero camber and -1 camber because I can't see any reason why anyone would ever need more even on a race car.
People don't listen though and will just get upset when they end up in a tree

You want more than 1.5deg (average clio) when you shift to r-series tyres and yet more again when you go slicks so there is a point in having them tbh. FWD touring cars run more camber on the rear than the front half the time, there knocking on the door for 6-7deg so if your extracting everything from the car there needed.

Road not so much need but I personally don't think its the case with the op's issue, shouldn't be noticinga massive difference.

 

[len_beach]

I can confirm that my sausage fingered brother had fitted the offside 90 degrees out so I had extra toe not camber. Fool!

I haven't driven the car yet but I dare say it will be much tighter.

As for whether you need the additional camber, the car is a road legal but 100% track car so why not. Slicks will be fitted this year so the extra contact patch when really pushing on in the corners should come in handy.

 

[ekaJ]

I can confirm that my sausage fingered brother had fitted the offside 90 degrees out so I had extra toe not camber. Fool!

I haven't driven the car yet but I dare say it will be much tighter.

As for whether you need the additional camber, the car is a road legal but 100% track car so why not. Slicks will be fitted this year so the extra contact patch when really pushing on in the corners should come in handy.

Haha wow! Bet that did feel funny.


I run 2 degree shims and can't say i've noticed any ill effects.

 

[Space Cadet]

Re-starting an old thread.......... Wont fitting rear camber shims increase rear-end grip and therefore increase understear??. Whereas on track I know I need to decrease understear by stiffening the rear shocks, therefore camber shims would be detrimental.​

 

[Cup_Phil]

I don't know technically why - but adding more front camber and adding rear camber has dramatically reduced the understeer on mine

 

[Space Cadet]

​Hummm. I totally agree with adding camber on the front, makes it twitchier on the straight but obviously then helps with grip when cornering. Surely though in a FWD car adding camber on the rear and making it gripper would promote understear??

 

[Nick172Cup]

Look at Touring cars. Don't think they understeer.

 

[Jay_Kay]

Camber on the rear helps the initial turn in I thought.

 

[Tony Hunter]

 

[Space Cadet]

I'm not disagreeing, just would be good to know the science behind them. I could do with a few mm more clearance so fitting say 1 degree shims would help, but not if it increases the dreaded understear.,

 

[Jay_Kay]

Opps thats toe...im going to sit in the corner now

 

[Tony Hunter]

You will have less tyre on the road which will help on turn in, then when going silly speeds the tyres will grip (loaded), but by that time, you will be way past worrying about understeer.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I think Tony is right (as per usual)
You get understeer going into a corner if the rear has more grip than the front as it pushes the front on - but when you add camber then it's reducing grip under braking in a straight line and adding grip when cornering

I've given up trying to understand it all - it's what the cup racers seem to run, Tony said it works, so I did it and it drives epically! lol

 

[Space Cadet]

Thanks Tony/Phill, still not 100% sure I fully understand but will take your word for it. Just had a look at the latest geo readings and I'm -3.12 both sides on the front and -2.25 and -2.46 on the rear, so would you recommend nothing, or 0.5 or 1.0 shims? Plus is it worth increasing the front when I'm next having it set up? Thanks, Mark

 

[NorthloopCup]

Thanks Tony/Phill, still not 100% sure I fully understand but will take your word for it. Just had a look at the latest geo readings and I'm -3.12 both sides on the front and -2.25 and -2.46 on the rear, so would you recommend nothing, or 0.5 or 1.0 shims? Plus is it worth increasing the front when I'm next having it set up? Thanks, Mark

Tbh unless your taking tyre temp readings its pretty pointless adding more camber as there's no way you will know if you've made any improvements.
How is the car behaving? Are you suffering from understeer? What toe settings are you running front/rear? I'm just trying to get an idea of where your coming from and what you are aiming to achieve.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Thanks Tony/Phill, still not 100% sure I fully understand but will take your word for it. Just had a look at the latest geo readings and I'm -3.12 both sides on the front and -2.25 and -2.46 on the rear, so would you recommend nothing, or 0.5 or 1.0 shims? Plus is it worth increasing the front when I'm next having it set up? Thanks, Mark

Thats as much as the race car. Sounds like you need other adjustments to sort handling out. As Mark says, what are your toe settings, how much rake are you running etc.

​Have you had it corner weighted?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Look at Touring cars. Don't think they understeer.

Touring cars are normally just desperately trying to work the rear hard to try and get heat into them, often running huge amounts of toe as well for the same reason.

I wouldnt say they are a good place to look for a suitable fast road or trackday suspension setup personally.

 

[Chip-mk1]

​Hummm. I totally agree with adding camber on the front, makes it twitchier on the straight but obviously then helps with grip when cornering. Surely though in a FWD car adding camber on the rear and making it gripper would promote understear??

Adding camber on the rear doesnt "make it grippier" though.

It leans the contact patch of the tyre away from the road, so when the car is upright (just about to turn) it will decrease the grip on the rear (ie make it more likely to oversteer initially), then as the car leans over it will start to increase the tyre contact patch and hence increase grip.

But there is an optimum amount for any car on any particular corner, go too far and even when leant over the tyre wont make proper contact.


If you put massive camber on the front, THAT will increase understeer, if you start putting enough camber on so that the front wont bite on initial turn in, it will be horribly under steery, that is why increased caster is so good isntead, less static camber but when you start reaching large steering angles it increases.
An unequal length double wishbone front suspension setup (you know really high tech stuff like a 1959 mini has but a clio doesnt) is also very good for this as it dynamically adds camber based on roll, which is the perfect scenario really.

 

[Space Cadet]

Thanks everyone, I'm not sure now those readings are my very latest so am going to try and get the latest today and will re-post. Yes the car has always been corner-weighted. I don't think the readings will have changed dramatically since, but the 'old' readings show 2.26/2.27 Caster front, -0.08/-0.06 Toe front and 0.11 toe/0.10 Toe rear.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Thanks Tony/Phill, still not 100% sure I fully understand but will take your word for it. Just had a look at the latest geo readings and I'm -3.12 both sides on the front and -2.25 and -2.46 on the rear, so would you recommend nothing, or 0.5 or 1.0 shims? Plus is it worth increasing the front when I'm next having it set up? Thanks, Mark

I'm running -3 on the fronts and -2.3 on the rears - so very similar to you
Even on road tyres there's virtually no understeer at all - so if you're still having problems with those settings I think you should probably look at other contributing factors

Maybe fit some shims to the rear and get rid of that toe in.

 

[Space Cadet]

Thanks Phil. So what Toe ideally do I want on the rear?

Does a positive Toe figure, i.e. 0.11 mean the wheel is pointing inwards or outward from the car? I'm assuming from you saying "toe in" that they are pointing inwards, in which case fitting a 0.5 degree shim would presumably make the figure -0.4???

What readings are you running?