Track day bodyroll

[.Kev.]

After seeing some pic's of my car at Marham last weekend im kind of thinking i may need stiffer springs. Has anyone changed there coilover springs on CS? Ie for stiffer ones and for what reason.

It may just be me, but is this amount of leaning ok? Or is it a bad thing. This is going to be for track use only by the way. Not much road.

Just wondering what people's thoughts are regarding suspension set up.

 

[theduck]

Looks ok to me, what are you running at the moment?

 

[chrispy.clio]

I was going to say get a whiteline ARB but you have one allready dont you :S

Mine was pitching this much at Marham. As long as your not rubbing then you'll be fine.

 

[theduck]

Rear doesnt seem to be rolling that much, its more the front, well in that pic anyway.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Firmer springs/damper settings. Passenger won't help either. Bushes are uprated front arb if they make them

 

[Fred@BTM]

roll isn't a bad thing! although i do need to change my front ARB to a 172 one, the shopping trolley one doesn't work so well!

my favourite!

(i'll stop picture slagging now!)

 

[Phil @ P5]

Firmer springs/damper settings. Passenger won't help either. Bushes are uprated front arb if they make them

It's the springs and ARBs rather than the dampers that dicate the amount of roll (see below); the dampers just control the rate of roll.

Lowering the car too much can also increase the amount of roll, so it's best to work within the parameters that Renault designed the chassis for. Remember, roll is a good thing as you allow the dampers to control the transfer of weight and keep a stable tyre contact patch.

Phil

 

[Phil @ P5]

roll isn't a bad thing!

Beat me to it....

 

[.Kev.]

Nice pics Fred,

Im running FK Konigsports at the mo, front bushes have all been changed, Whiteline ARB on the back and AST top mounts.

It felt good in the corners, rubbed a little under extreme loading though. Would raising it slightly be a good idea then?

Do you know what would cause a scrubbing feeling coming up through the steering wheel, only when turning right. Is that me pushing to hard.

 

[.Kev.]

What shocks do you have fred?

 

[.Kev.]

Shot of the rear.

 

[Fred@BTM]

cup racer rears and 8year old 1.2 FK coilovers on the front LOL! (1.2 everything, ARB's etc) its "interesting" LOL

 

[Jonny1*2]

It's the springs and ARBs rather than the dampers that dicate the amount of roll (see below); the dampers just control the rate of roll.

Lowering the car too much can also increase the amount of roll, so it's best to work within the parameters that Renault designed the chassis for. Remember, roll is a good thing as you allow the dampers to control the transfer of weight and keep a stable tyre contact patch.

Phil

I meant the dampers would need adjusting to suit the spring rate

 

[.Kev.]

A real mans car lol

Shock were set as stiff as they would go on the front, slightly softer on the rear.

 

[Fred@BTM]

^try full hard rear and full soft front, just as an experiment, that's how i run pretty much (yes i'm keeping the terminology simple, "hard" and "soft" is the incorrect term, but meh, its cliosport not Autosport!)

 

[Ralphizzle]

^^^ Autosport

What about comp. bumpstops? Or packers? If you run quite low...

 

[.Kev.]

They came with 2 bumpstops, the biggest being 2inches and the smallest being an inch. Im using the smalest at the mo. What effect would the bump stop have? Ie changing to the bigger one.

 

[st3ve]

They came with 2 bumpstops, the biggest being 2inches and the smallest being an inch. Im using the smalest at the mo. What effect would the bump stop have? Ie changing to the bigger one.

f**k me, is that what all those little bits are? I just threw mine on lmao! I left all those little bits in the bag.

Any pics of the car at a stand still Kev to show how low you've got it?

+1 to totally firm at the rear and one click from firm on the front, works really well for fast road use.

 

[Henry]

do any of you find the fronts scrubbing the sidewalls badly? i've still to have a go but have read elsewhere of someone's suggestion that they could do with more front neg.camb. to combat sidewall scrubbing - ?

 

[.Kev.]

She's set like this at the mo, had a slight bit of rubbing up front on the track day where she was catching the plastic arch liners, thinking of raising her 5-10mm.

As for scrubbing i do get a scrubbing vibration whilst cornering heavily to the right (not left):S, was running 27psi cold on R888's. Adding more camber just made this worse. Not sure if something else is causing it. ie wheel bearing?

Anyone know what effect the bigger bumpstop would have under heavy cornering?

 

[Ralphizzle]

The bumpstops smoothens out the suspension when fully compressed, preventing bottoming-out ie. cushioning them. Depending on the hardness (durometer).

I had these on my Rover Mini 1.3Mpi, like a Mini has that much suspension travel.

 

[drhowser]

Would using a larger bumpstop not just reduce suspension travel?

 

[GodSpeed]

Think it rolls to much for a track car, Ive done like this:

Updated Bilstein coilovers from 75M/mm springs to 100N/mm in front.

Powerflex front arb mounts + reinfoced front arb.

Rear Whiteline ARB

Custom made rear spring seats à la Clio Group N and 60mm ID 100N/mm springs. Key to make it roll less is the rear axle. This is an unexpensive way to make it harder in the back without using expensive coilovers.

 

[GodSpeed]

do any of you find the fronts scrubbing the sidewalls badly? i've still to have a go but have read elsewhere of someone's suggestion that they could do with more front neg.camb. to combat sidewall scrubbing - ?

Yes all of us in the Swedish Clio Crew have the same problem, toasting the outsides of the tires on track. This is despite running cambers of -2,5 to -3,0 After making some movie analysis we have come to the conclution that roll is making the car "tilt over" actually making camber almost possitive under hard cornering = bad = to much stress on the outsides of the tires. Rock hard rear seems to be the solution.

 

[.Kev.]

Thanks for your Help Godspeed, Going to look into this setup.

Thanks again!

 

[Jamie86]

Roll isn't a bad thing like most people have said..

In fact going too hard can make the car slower, I know for a fact that some full on race cars managed to reduce their laptimes by around 1second from using springs that were roughly half the spring rate they were running before
(was told this by someone who used to write technical articles for track+race car mag)

 

[robins]

Put the bigger bumpstop in. They are actually known as "spring aids" as they raise the effective rate on the spring in larger amounts of compression. They will stop the car rolling as much, and wont have too much influence on the other aspects of handling like turn in which you would get by upping the front spring rate. You would be surprised at how much these little rubber things are used in tuning everyday and race car suspension.

Raising the front ride height will also help things as it raises the front roll centre also. This makes for a smaller moment couple between the CoG and the roll centre, giving you less body roll. Simples

 

[GodSpeed]

Roll isn't a bad thing like most people have said..

Very strange comment I must say. Too much of anything will spoil the cake... what we have seen on the pictures is excessive roll and that is not a good thing. At the same time you cannot make the car too hard then you will definitely loose time. First of all roll should mainly be cured by ARB not by rock hard springs. You need to find a balance.

If you want to build a Clio that handles like a cup race car just look at a Clio Cup race car. Not much roll to be seen here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R24whfYYoY

 

[.Kev.]

Good gen about the bump stops Robins,

Godspeed, With regards to the group n rear spring platforms, are they similar to a coil over rear platform?

Also in your picture of the front Anti Roll bar you've had a brace welded in, is this not the bit which goes up and over the exhaust manifold? Did you have any problems with clearance?

Ive got the rear Whit line anti roll bar, would it be worth the pain of upgrading to the larger diameter cup anti roll bar?

Thanks for all your comments guys.

 

[GodSpeed]

Godspeed, With regards to the group n rear spring platforms, are they similar to a coil over rear platform?

Also in your picture of the front Anti Roll bar you've had a brace welded in, is this not the bit which goes up and over the exhaust manifold? Did you have any problems with clearance?

Since you are free to change the springs to what ever you desire and get it as hard as you will ever like, yes. But the similarities stop there, a coilover setup is a better solution no doubt about it. They come at a price though...

Nope it does not go over the mailfold. No problem with clerance, have uprated lower engine mount though. Without it the gear linkage may touch the ARB.

 

[Jamie86]

Ok maybe I should of said roll isn't always a bad thing..

I meant it in the way of people just get the hardest springs possible and lower the car as much as it will go thinking this will make it handle better..

The setup you are running does look pretty good theough and must pull itself out of the corners pretty well with the LSD as well

 

[jonbrown]

I wouldn't have said body roll was always a bad thing providing it's consistent from front to rear. If the front and rear roll at the same rate you'll have no nasty surprises when it comes to turning in, although it can make changing direction feel sluggish.

Surely if your ending up with lots of positive camber when cornering hard it's a roll centre issue rather than a camber setting issue or shock set up. I would have said changing the shocks affects too may other variables, such grip level and how well the car will ride any bumps and undulations in a track. Just my thoughts from the racing I do.

 

[Hutchie]

im running gaz golds on front a leda's on the rear.

its stiff, litrally no roll.

yet to see what its like on track but on the road its pretty planted.