South West Rolling Road at K-tec Racing: 21st January

[Chip-mk1]

That's ridiculous, cams don't give you the same power on each car, nor does any mod.

We are only talking about this car. Not claiming that it will give you this increase on every car.

Tell you what, come to surrey rolling road on saturday and run the car, then we'll swap on a decent standard air filter and run it again, back to back on the same car on the same day.

I'll wager you 200 quid it doesnt lose as much as 15 lbft going onto the standard filter, and loser pays for both sets of rolling road time.

That way you can not just prove me wrong, you can also profit from doing so

 

[Cooksport]

Decent standard? Now your chatting s**t.

At what point did we say it was a decent filter it previously had. I will happily take your wager for the differences with filter which first came off, however it's not my car.

I would love to take part in your little experiment. Although I am busy doing something worthwhile and building a race car for the next few
Weeks.

Where did we say it made 15 lbft over a decent standard filter.

Stop being such a bellend. I'm bored of you trying to cause arguments, it doesn't make this forum a nice place to be.

 

[Chip-mk1]

As I said right at the beginning of this:

unless you actually had a completely blocked filter or some other basic error like that

As ive said mutliple times, the before figure could easily have been low if the car wasnt correct to begin with, but in that case it would have gained most if not all of that extra torque just from a decent standard one.

Doesnt sound to me like he is saying it had some clogged up or substandard filter, in fact he is saying it was all spot on:

My car was running pretty spot on on the first one so I was told. I didn't have a belt change. I ran the same car, nothing altered at all. Same fuel, everything only thing I changed was that induction setup.

Having not read it properly. This is a whole new induction setup. I didn't just bang a new filter on.

And FYI im not "trying to cause arguments" im merely trying to make threads contain accurate information.

 

[Cooksport]

It wasn't a low figure, maybe just restricted.

And you are trying to cause arguments. It wouldn't have occurred if you weren't commenting.

 

[Chip-mk1]

It wasn't a low figure, maybe just restricted.

And you are trying to cause arguments. It wouldn't have occurred if you weren't commenting.

No im trying to correct misleading information, thats not trying to cause an argument, it only becomes an argument when people start all the sill comments like your friend was doing.


All he needed to do, was reply with details of what the before setup was and what the after setup was, me and Laine were both saying you wont see a 15lbft gain from an indcution kit against a good standard filter, if he didnt have a good standard filter, he should just have said "yes I realise I would have got most of the gains just from fitting a good condition genuine renault setup" or similar.

Laine for example said this:

I have to side towards what chip is saying i think.

Althogh i certainly wouldnt complain about the figures, and would be happy as larry, but 15ft lb's from an air filter.. just plain doesnt happen unless there was something wrong with the other filter beforehand

BUT if what your saying is true then its all good

We are both saying exactly the same thing, that the only way anyone can expect a genuine gain of 15lbft against their filter, is if its got something wrong with it in the first place.

My car could gain 100bhp from a set of plugs if I put a set on first that were completely knackered, its a pointless claim to be making, you have to compare against a decent condition starting point or its worthless as a comparison.

 

[Cooksport]

I would love to keep going with this, but I literally can't be assed. Its Clearly much faster than before in real life circumstances.

There can't be something "wrong" with a car producing 173bhp.

But with a change of induction, style or condition has resulted in a 15 lbft increase of torque. FACT

 

[Luke.]

You are a f**king clown..

If you look with your eyes it says at the beginning of the thread that the car had back to back testing with a crappy air filter and again an hour or so later with the 'Standard Renault Setup' this included a good air filter. The BHP rose from 172bhp to 175bhp with similar torque.

Your so full of s**t you can't see past your own theories of what's right and what's wrong.

Your literally like a child, nit picking at everything you can.

Tbh I couldn't give a f**k what you think. I know for a fact it has made a HUGE difference to my car not just on the rollers but on the road aswell.

What your saying is completely and utterly irrelevant to me.

When furthers tests are done on other cars then you will see then.

Until then keep your opinions to yourself..

Rant over..

 

[Chip-mk1]

I would love to keep going with this, but I literally can't be assed. Its Clearly much faster than before in real life circumstances.

There can't be something "wrong" with a car producing 173bhp.

But with a change of induction, style or condition has resulted in a 15 lbft increase of torque. FACT

If there was nothing wrong with it, ie the filter was in good condition to begin with how could you change the condition of the filter?

 

[Cooksport]

Old standard for new standard?

 

[Luke.]

We are both saying exactly the same thing, that the only way anyone can expect a genuine gain of 15lbft against their filter, is if its got something wrong with it in the first place.

My car could gain 100bhp from a set of plugs if I put a set on first that were completely knackered, its a pointless claim to be making, you have to compare against a decent condition starting point or its worthless as a comparison.

Just WOW..

Me and Josh are saying exactly the same thing aswell, that this 'induction setup' gives you s**t loads of torque.

But it's just gonna be our word against yours but as you werent there then I guess we will just have to carry on living life at the front of the grid.

Cooksport FTMFW!!

Amen..

 

[Cooksport]

Dirt retention is a massive part of air filtration. Doesn't mean there is something wrong with a car....

 

[Chip-mk1]

You are a f**king clown..

Its ironic that I get told im trying to cause arguments by your friend for just discussing what does or doesnt effect the performance of an F4R engine and yet its you keep feeling the need to name call.

If you look with your eyes it says at the beginning of the thread that the car had back to back testing with a crappy air filter and again an hour or so later with the 'Standard Renault Setup' this included a good air filter. The BHP rose from 172bhp to 175bhp with similar torque.

What was the peak torque figure on the standard renault filter?

Your so full of s**t you can't see past your own theories of what's right and what's wrong.

Again you feel this weird need to name call.

Your literally like a child, nit picking at everything you can.

Ironic its apparently me being child when Im just calming and inteligently discussing something I happen to know quite a lot about, and yet its you with all the name calling etc.

Tbh I couldn't give a f**k what you think. I know for a fact it has made a HUGE difference to my car not just on the rollers but on the road aswell.

Well if it had a substandard setup to begin with, that is what you would expect.

What your saying is completely and utterly irrelevant to me.

When furthers tests are done on other cars then you will see then.

Im sure as more tests are done we'll all see some different figures, and I suspect yours will stand out as unusual.

Until then keep your opinions to yourself..

I dont do requests, this is a discussion forum and I will use it to discuss any subject I wish, especially one as on topic as people making foolish claims about power gains.

Rant over..

Hope you enjoyed it, cant see the point in rants myself, im more the logical and structured approach kind of guy TBH.

 

[Luke.]

If there was nothing wrong with it, ie the filter was in good condition to begin with how could you change the condition of the filter?

Why would you want to? :/

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just WOW..

Me and Josh are saying exactly the same thing aswell, that this 'induction setup' gives you s**t loads of torque.

But it's just gonna be our word against yours but as you werent there then I guess we will just have to carry on living life at the front of the grid.

Cooksport FTMFW!!

Amen..

Actually Josh appears to be saying something different, he appears to be saying that a substandard filter loses you a lot of that torque, he seems to understand a lot more about cars than yourself TBH.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Dirt retention is a massive part of air filtration. Doesn't mean there is something wrong with a car....

If a car has a clogged up air filter then there is something wrong with that car IMHO.
Replace the filter, then there isnt.
Not rocket science.


I see these sort of flawed tests all the time where comapnies claim massive gains by testing their product against substandard condition OEM parts.

Very frustrating that some people are stupid enough to be taken in by them, its a big part of how the modified car parts business works sadly!


Plugs and leads are another common one, but air filters probably the biggest example.

 

[Cooksport]

I dont even care about trying to prove anything to you.

Your not discussing anything intelligently...

 

[Cooksport]

If a car has a clogged up air filter then there is something wrong with that car IMHO.
Replace the filter, then there isnt.
Not rocket science.


I see these sort of flawed tests all the time where comapnies claim massive gains by testing their product against substandard condition OEM parts.

Very frustrating that some people are stupid enough to be taken in by them, its a big part of how the modified car parts business works sadly!


Plugs and leads are another common one, but air filters probably the biggest example.

Define clogged?

 

[Luke.]

Actually Josh appears to be saying something different, he appears to be saying that a substandard filter loses you a lot of that torque, he seems to understand a lot more about cars than yourself TBH.

Haha. Again not reading.. I know that a 'substandard' air filter will lose torque it's not rocket science. But as I said to you. It was done with said substandard air filter. Then again on the same day with a standard Renault airbox setup with a good filter and it made 3bhp more with standard with similar torque figures..

 

[Chip-mk1]

I dont even care about trying to prove anything to you.

Well stop trying, TBH its become fairly apparent from all your posts what actually happened with his car now anyway, he had a substandard filter, he replaced it with apparently a good quality induction kit and now his car goes a lot better.
That sounds perfectly believable to all im sure, but that isnt how he was first presenting it.
How he presented it sounded wrong, we've discussed it, found out what the errors in that were, case closed IMHO unless you want to discuss roller sync errors or similar which might also have contributed to it mis representing the differences.

Your not discussing anything intelligently...

Thankyou for your analysis.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Define clogged?

Sorry cant help you with that in text, not an easy thing to define in writing, I know with a fairly high degree of certainty by looking at filter if its likey to have enough dirt on it to impact performance significantly or not, if you dont then its something you will have to learn over time like I did.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Haha. Again not reading.. I know that a 'substandard' air filter will lose torque it's not rocket science. But as I said to you. It was done with said substandard air filter. Then again on the same day with a standard Renault airbox setup with a good filter and it made 3bhp more with standard with similar torque figures..

You keep referring to the torque figure as similar, I have already asked you what it actually was and you havent replied, it would be more useful to discussion if you did so than to keep saying "similar" as obviously the gains cant really be compared against "similar"

 

[Luke.]

Are you blind?

God next you will be telling me that my other mates 182 didn't make a 6bhp from 'matched inlets' since the last RR day.

 

[Cooksport]

I'm not trying to, otherwise I wouldn't be talking half heartedly off an iPhone.

On a separate note, What are your qualifications or experience in the automotive industry?

 

[Cooksport]

Sorry cant help you with that in text, not an easy thing to define in writing, I know with a fairly high degree of certainty by looking at filter if its likey to have enough dirt on it to impact performance significantly or not, if you dont then its something you will have to learn over time like I did.

So your a human air flow meter now?

 

[Luke.]

You keep referring to the torque figure as similar, I have already asked you what it actually was and you havent replied, it would be more useful to discussion if you did so than to keep saying "similar" as obviously the gains cant really be compared against "similar"

Substandard Air Filter - 172 BHP 154ft.lbs
Standard Air Box - 175 BHP 156ft.lbs
Cooksport Inductiom Setup - 180bhp 168ft.lbs

So even from standard Renault thats 5bhp 12ft.lbs

Still impossible??

 

[tom172cup]

Any pics of the Cooksport setup

 

[Cooksport]

Still testing.

It's been used before, just with different filters. It's nothing fantastically special, just seems to give good gains on every car which has used it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Are you blind?

God next you will be telling me that my other mates 182 didn't make a 6bhp from 'matched inlets' since the last RR day.

Its quite common for people to see changes of a few bhp between runs on car that hasnt changed at all, so I dont see why you couldnt see 6bhp from a car that has had a minor change.
Especially on some rolling roads, there was a fella on here the other day who had 3 rolling road runs done on the same car on the same day and saw 20bhp between them, lol

 

[davo172]

Tell you what, come to surrey rolling road on saturday and run the car, then we'll swap on a decent standard air filter and run it again, back to back on the same car on the same day.

I'll wager you 200 quid it doesnt lose as much as 15 lbft going onto the standard filter, and loser pays for both sets of rolling road time.

That way you can not just prove me wrong, you can also profit from doing so

Just reading this thread with intrest and not taking anyones side just that the above quote sounds like the only way to settle it, Just IMO of course if I was that confident I was correct I would take it !!
You both seem quite sure you are correct. I must say that 15lbs/ft does seem a lot for induction set up.
I have ran my car on several rolling roads at the same spec nothing changing and got different figures each time wheel and flywheel measurements , also when run on same rollers . So many variables on rolling roads also intresting to how wheel and flywheel figures vary a lot eg 155bhp at wheels gives one reading at fly on one rollers, and same wheel figure on another gives another flywheel figure on another.

 

[Luke.]

This was the same rolling road a month apart with 2 different induction setups..

That is all..

Oh and my mistake the 182 made 8bhp and 4ft.lbs

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just reading this thread with intrest and not taking anyones side just that the above quote sounds like the only way to settle it, Just IMO of course if I was that confident I was correct I would take it !!
You both seem quite sure you are correct. I must say that 15lbs/ft does seem a lot for induction set up.
I have ran my car on several rolling roads at the same spec nothing changing and got different figures each time wheel and flywheel measurements , also when run on same rollers . So many variables on rolling roads also intresting to how wheel and flywheel figures vary a lot eg 155bhp at wheels gives one reading at fly on one rollers, and same wheel figure on another gives another flywheel figure on another.

Since I posted that it has come to light that the gains were a bit smaller than originally implied so I dont think they'll ever be taking that particular bet.

We've now got to the fact it was 12lbft against a renault filter, which Im guessing was in itself not new either, so that could easily account for some of the difference as well.

However, just because I think the numbers might be a little high, doesnt mean I dont believe that significant gains can still be had from the right setup, I suspect they can.

Not quite so sure why these lads are so on the defensive, well other than I assume that a "cooksport filter" refers to being made by this Josh cook fella in the first place, so he obviously has a vested interest in it.

 

[Cooksport]

The gains haven't changed at all, it was 15 lbft over the crap air filter which he had running on his car. It was less when compared to a standard renault airbox and filter.

At no point have the gains changed, apart from Lukes last comment regarding the matched inlets on another vehicle.

I havent vested an interest in the induction system. However when I fitted it to my own car years ago, I saw a hell of an increase in torque and "ok" gains in power.

Luke has seen better results than I did. I will test it again on my own CUP when i have fitted the engine back in.

 

[Laine_16v]

Chip bare in mind, regardless of the previous air filter setup. For any induction setup to be fitted to a 172 and then produce 168ft lb's peak is quite impressive.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Chip bare in mind, regardless of the previous air filter setup. For any induction setup to be fitted to a 172 and then produce 168ft lb's peak is quite impressive.

I agree, and I havent said otherwise at any point in this thread either.

Standard inlet manifold is impressive in itself IMHO, millerin made 165lbft on the standard inlet as well for example with just a panel filter

 

[NFox]

Nick Fox!!

I seen you and seen you wave out. Have to meet up soon kid and show me you 182 Lawrence was telling me about

Yeah defo! Bit skint atm as putting all my money asides for the dreaded belts etc next month but once thats all done we will have to arrange something!

 

[Luke.]

Regardless of what you say. 12ft.lbs is still impressive. The filter box fitted had a near new filter fitted. Hardly 'clogged' as you keep saying. Maybe if you unclogged your brain it would help you see through what actually happened. Instead of getting hung up on words..

 

[Luke.]

Yeah defo! Bit skint atm as putting all my money asides for the dreaded belts etc next month but once thats all done we will have to arrange something!

Get it up to Cooksport mate.

Hey you never know. You could leave with 20ft.lbs more then when you started

 

[Chip-mk1]

Regardless of what you say. 12ft.lbs is still impressive. The filter box fitted had a near new filter fitted. Hardly 'clogged' as you keep saying. Maybe if you unclogged your brain it would help you see through what actually happened. Instead of getting hung up on words..

If it made genuine gains of even half that (ie 6lbft) then its impressive IMHO mate.

You guys seem to be acting like I have slagged off your product, I actually havent done so at any point. Will be interesting to see some more testing of it, like I said I would like to find a way to increase peak torque marginally on our RS2 car which runs a standard throttle body so if an induction kit comes along that does help to boost peak torque I'd be interested in it, assuming it can do so without harming too much elsewhere.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Get it up to Cooksport mate.

Hey you never know. You could leave with 20ft.lbs more then when you started

Could do if his starting point is bad enough

 

[NFox]

Get it up to Cooksport mate.

Hey you never know. You could leave with 20ft.lbs more then when you started

I believe thats where its going Luke through Law! Haha any extra power/torque always welcome!