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Handling - Willy Vs 16v
- Thread starter Valver'o'Death
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- 16v
wot the f**k???????
why is it that every time i give reply that people dont understand, or looks theoretical, i get slated??
i have no books!! god damn, can some1 not have it upstairs??!!
it is wot i have learnt
and because im not a r****d, i can remember/understand wot i learn
Fiat Coupe 20v turbo
Its the irresistable force meets the immovable object! Show me a standard williams round a track and Im sure you can change the tyres and make it lap faster than the better/original setup and thats all I care about.
PS stan you dont appear to have a car in your profile, is it a williams?
for a start...yes i can change bearings, and gearboxes......hell i even changed the HT leads last wk. i can do all this....i really can. but at the end of the day, in a couple of years time im gonna be earning muchos bucks, and it wont be from being a GREASE MONKEY.
my tools will be a clip-board, ill get u ben to do the real stuff, the bearings, the gear boxes.......
(and yes i mean 2 sound like a c**k)
BTW i dont have any books OF MY OWN. yes there r books in the library, but it shut at 5pm
Ditto and bingo.
When i say best, being from a racing background, i mean fastest.......sure pig horrid isnt nice, which is why the rd car is a compramise....not bad one, a good one.
But again, they will repeat themselves saying *in a poindexsters voice* "the williams was setup to work coherently with the michelin tyres".........
king.stromba writes (he ran out of posts):
As far as i am concerned about 6 months ago i bought a Clio Williams and found out i needed new rubber. I found out standard rubber was 100 quid each, but i could pay 50 quid each for different tyres. I did alot of research, phoned, wrote and personally visited alot of people. The conclusion i got was Michelin Pilots are the best tyre to retain the FEEL of the Williams. This feel incidently is what makes a Williams a Williams, and if you take it away, youve just got an expensive valver. The Williams is the best hot hatch ever partly because of this feel. The people I asked were all respected, high-up or senior personel in their field with alot of experience and no money to be made from telling me it either way. I have this information and chose to use it. If you want to ignore it, fair enough, its now your choice, ive told you what i know.
I think what this really comes down to is price. People see the 195s as a good buy because they are half as much, but claim they chose the tyre because of handling. Why dont you just admit it. You fitted a different tyre because you didnt want to pay full price for Michelin Pilots. Id have more respect for you if you did.
And i have driven a Williams on 195s and it felt aweful. If you think your car feels good on them i suggest you go and find a good example of a Williams on 185s and try that. Youll soon be f*cking those cheap tyres off.
Stan,
I dont post much mate, but I read a lot of threads on Cliosport and RSC. Over the last month I have noticed that almost every thread involving you ends up with an argument.
If you find it that hard to discuss certain subjects with people, then my advice to you is dont bother.
Stop starting arguments to try and prove your superiority, and stop talking down to people like you are the only one with an education!
Advice over.
This gets even more laughable. First we are told they have to be the OE fitment and then we are told you have to stick to 185 not 195.
Its all very well asking opinions of people but the only way is to try yourself. Eagle f1s etc are available in 185/55/15. May handle better than the Michelins. If you dont try you dont suceed.
Personally I dont think you can win this argument with someone so obsessive that they want to own 2 Willys and still think about buying a third (if I remember correctly). How many Willys can you have!!!!! Not really objective to have your second and even third car the same.
errrrrrrr hehe where do i start?
lol
rite i think i have the right to reply to this...........as some of you may know i drive my car rather hard most of the time..........even managing to get it very sideways at brunters, altho that was mainly down to track conditions....
i live in the yorkshire moors, loadsa single track bumpy roads, as adi found out in his silver 1 one night,hehe, but also a lot of fairly recently tarmaced main roads.
i have at the moment the michelin pilots hx that were fitted to the car from the showroom.........unfortunately michelin no longer make these tyres, and even the new ones now are over 8 year old.......y are they no longer avaliable, cos michs new tyres to replace them are better lol
iv tried 185/50 pirrellis but found them to tram line far too much, exaltos are on my shopping list for the car at the mo. but in a 195/50 .........hehe
(kicks the hornets nest)
rite i also have my car runnin on avo coilovers front and adj avos on the rear, all running std ride height. i find the way the car corners now to be a lot more reassuring than it was std. i prefer it how it is, i know the speeds i felt safe goin round corners wen it was std , and the safe feelin is still there but at higher speeds with the coilovers........ i admit , im no professional racing driver, but wen the red mists there i can corner as good as the next man............but i do know that the car as is now feels a lot sturdier, and safer thru the corners
and as for saying Its not that the R19 parts are very good, just that the Williams uses them very well and is very well set up. Trust me, ive just been driven in one of the best example of a Williams left, on some of the greatest roads in Britain, flat out, wheels up, by a trained racing driver
how u know its 1 of the best examples?.........u drove em all? have u even seen em all?
is urs better than mine then???
evo may have used the earliest numbered willy in their shoot, but i know for sure they didnt feature the best one
cos mines the best
The Jinx
If this b****cks about manufacturers getting the best tyre is correct, why do BMW supply their M3s with Pilot Cups? BMW spend more time testing their products than any other manufacturer yet consistently many TOP car mags slate their choice of tyre.
Hell, Autocar even got a 1.8 Mondeo on P-Zeros to lap faster round a damp track than the M3 on its Miches.
Then theres the fact that they insist their MINIs come with expensive and not particularly good run-flats.
Im not arguing about tyre size as the original 185/55s probably are the best, but compund wise I dont see that theres any argument. If they were that good for the Willy then theyd still make them.
Look, it seems that for some reason people cannot understand what i am saying. So ill try to explain in bullet points.
1. The Williams is a fantstic handling car. I really do not think many people are qualified to improve it, be it tyres or suspension. I agree a few extra BHP isnt a problem, if thats what you want to do, and maybe if you get above 180 BHP some improved brakes. But, as far as the handling goes, its already bl**dy good.
2. Those that do claim better handling, never really explain what they mean by that. Maybe these people could explain where the Williams is so bad that they want to improve it? Personally i cant see it. If i was going to improve the car i would use parts developed for the rally versions or cup racing versions of the car. Anything else i would consider inferior.
3. I agree that some cars are not great on their original tyres. The Nissan S13 200sx is a great example. If performs much better on non standard tyres. However, the Wiliams does handle VERY well (read: supercar well) on the Michelins and i really have never seen any evidence that other tyres are better, be it different manufacturer, size, shape, colour or smell.
4. Most people who change tyres, do it in my opinion for reasons of cost, rather than any other reason. If other tyres were better im sure someone would be running more expensive rubber on their car, but i havnt come across this yet. The better tyres are always cheaper. Funny that.
5. I am quite open to changing my tyres, and listening to informed opinions on which tyre / suspension modifications may improve the Williams. However, most of the replies on this post have been UNINFORMED, ANECDOTAL or NON-COMMON SENSICAL.
4. Most people who change tyres, do it in my opinion for reasons of cost, rather than any other reason. If other tyres were better im sure someone would be running more expensive rubber on their car, but i havnt come across this yet. The better tyres are always cheaper. Funny that.
This is a falsehood. I think what you are trying to say is most people fit 195/50/15 rather than 185/55/15 for cost reasons. You can still fit better tyres, IMO the Eagle F1 in 185/55/15 and this would not be any cheaper than getting the Michelin equivalent, as this size and the number of vehicles (or lack of) that use it dictates the cost.
Clio 182 cup'd
3. I agree that some cars are not great on their original tyres. The Nissan S13 200sx is a great example. If performs much better on non standard tyres. However, the Wiliams does handle VERY well (read: supercar well) on the Michelins and i really have never seen any evidence that other tyres are better, be it different manufacturer, size, shape, colour or smell.
Yes but you dont have any evidence to show that the original tyres are better either do you?
Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 18 February 2004
3. I agree that some cars are not great on their original tyres. The Nissan S13 200sx is a great example. If performs much better on non standard tyres. However, the Wiliams does handle VERY well (read: supercar well) on the Michelins and i really have never seen any evidence that other tyres are better, be it different manufacturer, size, shape, colour or smell.
Yes but you dont have any evidence to show that the original tyres are better either do you?
No of course not, Renaultsport just randomly picked a tyre size and make out of a hat
again King, you ask for all sorts of evidence, but to what reasoning do YOU think your car works better on those tyres, WHY did ren choose them, how did they co-operate with michelin, and like most manufacturers there was probaly a price subsidy involved.
They also picked the crankshaft out of the bin.....why not the tyres? lol
They had parts that they used to save costs, but at the end of the day they made a cracking engine. They did the same good job with the suspension. Its irrelevant WHERE the parts came from. Whats more important is that they work well together. If they had indeed slapped on tyres like you intimate, they got very lucky.
People seem to assume that because tyre A is better than tyre B, you should go for tyre A. But cars like any machine, living or dead, have parts that work in synergy. Its not just a case of one part working best, its about everything working together so that the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Each part on the suspension compliments the others. To break it down to individualistic components is the reductionist view. Reductionism is IMO the tool of fools. Einstein used reductionism to help uderstand the individual components of the universe, but was careful to recnstruct the whole for his interpretations. This is because he new that understanding the individual components is important but the ultimate goal is to comprehend the interaction of these components in a holistic manner.
The Michelin Pilots are good, because they work WITH the suspension, just as the suspension works WITH the tyre. Nothing special about the tyre OR the suspension, but put them together, with the engine, which again isnt that special, and the sum of the parts makes a fantastic car. Take away the synergy and your left with a good car, not a fantastic one.
is the engine a cracking one of not that special, cause you changed your mind there.
And this tyre/chassis combo, they work together, but again another tyre wont?......you cant just say they work well with eachother, and give no support, even from basic driving feeling, why should i be so good to you.
And nobody is doubting the willy as a good handling car.
Synergy..........reductionist....just because you are not able to break them down to components and understand their workings or flaws, does not give you the right or even the authority to say that those who do are fools. You my friend are the one who cannot even explain what you feel and why. And you werent so strong on this until you got a few letters and listened to a few people. Where is YOUR opinion and why.........why is all im looking for.
Clio 182 cup'd
Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 18 February 2004
Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 18 February 2004
3. I agree that some cars are not great on their original tyres. The Nissan S13 200sx is a great example. If performs much better on non standard tyres. However, the Wiliams does handle VERY well (read: supercar well) on the Michelins and i really have never seen any evidence that other tyres are better, be it different manufacturer, size, shape, colour or smell.
Yes but you dont have any evidence to show that the original tyres are better either do you?
No of course not, Renaultsport just randomly picked a tyre size and make out of a hat
Ok so if the Williams came out today, do you think Renault would still choose 10 year old tyres over some technically superior tyres? I DONT THINK SO!!!
Focus ST
I really dont think you can argue with King on this one. All hes saying is that the Michelins work best with the suspension setup, because those are the tyres on which the suspension settings were developed and fine-tuned. Any other tyres and it wont handle like Renault intended; like a Williams should. This does make sense and no-one has any evidence to disprove this.
I think the main problem with this arguement is that its so hard to define good handling - it is a very sujective area. There are so many different factors to consider that I dont think anyone will ever agree on this.
*edit*- I should say, I dont think EVERYONE will agree on which is "better".
The Jinx
I doubt very much that they picked a tyre and then developed the suspension around it.
More likely is that they developed the suspension and then picked the tyre that they thought suited it best.
yes, thats perfectly fine, i have no problems admitting its a good handling car, because it is. But hes also saying that diff tyres cannot IMPROVE the car. Sure it handles like intended on intended tyres, but whos to say it cannot be improved.
He also says, I really do not think many people are qualified to improve it, be it tyres or suspension. And where he got this opnion i dont know. Since handling is so subjective and personally opinionated, then why should they not be able to improve the car to their requirements. Surely a car which they can go faster in and feel safer in at their limits is a better handling car for them.
Focus ST
No, they would probably have picked a different tyre, but the suspension settings would have been fine-tuned for that particular tyre, making it the most suitable choice if you want your car to handle as Renault intended - i.e. very well. Putting Michelins on would then potentially negatively affect the handling. Kings not saying Michelins are the best tyre - just the best if you want it to handle as a Williams should. Who are we to argue with highly qualified engineers?Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 18 February 2004
Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 18 February 2004
Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 18 February 2004
3. I agree that some cars are not great on their original tyres. The Nissan S13 200sx is a great example. If performs much better on non standard tyres. However, the Wiliams does handle VERY well (read: supercar well) on the Michelins and i really have never seen any evidence that other tyres are better, be it different manufacturer, size, shape, colour or smell.
Yes but you dont have any evidence to show that the original tyres are better either do you?
No of course not, Renaultsport just randomly picked a tyre size and make out of a hat
Ok so if the Williams came out today, do you think Renault would still choose 10 year old tyres over some technically superior tyres? I DONT THINK SO!!!
Clio 182 cup'd
Quote: Originally posted by Lucas on 18 February 2004
No, they would probably have picked a different tyre, but the suspension settings would have been fine-tuned for that particular tyre, making it the most suitable choice if you want your car to handle as Renault intended - i.e. very well. Putting Michelins on would then potentially negatively affect the handling. Kings not saying Michelins are the best tyre - just the best if you want it to handle as a Williams should. Who are we to argue with highly qualified engineers?Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 18 February 2004
Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 18 February 2004
Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 18 February 2004
3. I agree that some cars are not great on their original tyres. The Nissan S13 200sx is a great example. If performs much better on non standard tyres. However, the Wiliams does handle VERY well (read: supercar well) on the Michelins and i really have never seen any evidence that other tyres are better, be it different manufacturer, size, shape, colour or smell.
Yes but you dont have any evidence to show that the original tyres are better either do you?
No of course not, Renaultsport just randomly picked a tyre size and make out of a hat
Ok so if the Williams came out today, do you think Renault would still choose 10 year old tyres over some technically superior tyres? I DONT THINK SO!!!
I doubt this much concideration was taken when choosing the tyres. They have contracts with companies and probably just bought the best Mitchelin had to offer at the time - scences as it was the top of the range Clio at the time
Focus ST
Most of the fine-tuning of a vehicles suspension is carried out by expert calibrators who test drive prototypes, subjectively gauge how well a car handles in each particular area, modify, then test again until they are happy. It is very unlikely that they did their testing on one set of tyres, then picked another for the finished product.
Efforts are actually being made in industry to assess handling and driveability objectively, by correlating driver ratings with measured data. In this way, the need for time-consuming and costly testing and fine-tuning could be reduced.
