Heel & toe shifting

[Chip-mk1]

Of course downshifts on track are when on the brakes...but the flaw in your argument chip is that you assume you only ever downshift while threshold braking...i.e. as hard as is physically possible.

That is so not the case in my experience.

Take St. Marys at Goodwood for example, a fast right hander beforehand is taken in 5th, then you need a breathe on the brakes and a shift into 4th before St. Marys. To threshold brake there would be absolutely insane...and I know from bitter experience what it can be like unsettling the car on entry there. So it requires gentle braking and a heel/toe downshift so as to not unsettle the car. To not rev match would pitch weight seriously forwards.

Lol, of course you dont threshold break on EVERY corner, camp at combe for example I hardly touch the brakes in either of our clios as they are so slow you arent going quick enough to need to brake hard (although by contrast when Im driving cars with 400bhp that same bend does require hard braking so its dependant on what you are driving) but you certainly do so on most corners unless you car is very underpowered, hence I said "normally" doing when I referred to braking hard rather than "always"

Can you heel and toe yourself?

I can heel and toe myself reasonably well yes although I dont claim to be the worlds greatest driver, when I started doing trackday 15 years ago it was in minis and with the synchros in a mini box you pretty much HAVE to heel and toe unless you like rebuilding the boxes continually.
I can see the benefit of it mechnically as per every post I have made in this thread, I can also see the benefit in it performance wise when driving any of my RWD cars, but I can also see that benefit is relatively slim or non existant in a FWD car on most tracks, so if people think they are going to get quicker doing it they are generally going to be dissapointed as on most bends its going to make no difference and while learning they are likely to get slower if anything initially as most people I know who try and learn to heel and toe end up relinquishing braking force as they blip the throttle.

If so I'm stunned that you can't see the true benefit of it...those that argue against it are normally those that can't do it, so assume it's pointless/don't understand.

I am NOT arguing against heel and toe-ing, show me where I have said its a bad thing? Other than just me saying that people tend to get slower initially as they dont brake as well due to the distraction.

I am just saying that in most cases its going to make no difference to performance, there are a few limited examples where it will, but in most cases in a 172 clio, it isnt going to change the amount of time it actually takes you to get from before a bend to after a bend as the downshift is going to occur when you are braking anyway.

 

[MarkCup]

I understand what you're saying.

I've not said anywhere that it's about shaving tenths off lap times or exiting a turn 1mph faster have I?

To me it's about smoothness, balance, and most importantly as I keep my cars for a loooooong time, mechanical sympathy.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I understand what you're saying.

Cool, I think some people have seen replies from people who dont understand what I am saying who are therefore misquoting me and they have taken more notice of that than of my actual posts and got the wrong impression that im arguing against it, im not at all I think every car will benefit from the mechanical advantages of it, Ive just been saying for people not to learning it to suddenly make you quicker in a trackday clio thats all, cause in most cases it wont.

I've not said anywhere that it's about shaving tenths off lap times or exiting a turn 1mph faster have I?

I havent claimed that you personally did, but the post of yours I replied to which was talking about it avoiding "unsettling the car" certainly implied that as obviously an unsettled car is a slower car generally speaking.

To me it's about smoothness, balance, and most importantly as I keep my cars for a loooooong time, mechanical sympathy.

Mechanical sympathy is why I personally learnt to do it, IME it only really effects balance generally in the cars I drive that are RWD and even more so on motorbikes, but I quite often drive without heel and toe'ing these days oin track in FWD cars (naughty really getting out of the habbit but its a side effect of too many commuting miles I think, lol) and I can honestly not think of a time in a FWD car on track that I feel like Ive unsettled the car by not doing it, especially as like I said I tend to be quite smooth on coming off the clutch when I am not heal and toeing anyway.

 

[MarkCup]

We're on the same page then LOL.

I don't think I could EVER downshift without rev-matching either on or off the brakes. Whenever I watch footage of people doing it...I just wince/cringe and think of the clutch!

 

[Chip-mk1]

We're on the same page then LOL.

I don't think I could EVER downshift without rev-matching either on or off the brakes. Whenever I watch footage of people doing it...I just wince/cringe and think of the clutch!

I used to be very much the same when I drove the same car for trackdays and as a daily, but over a half million commuting miles since then has made me lazy on the road, lol

 

[Tony Hunter]

Just can't see the point.

 

[Nick172Cup]

LOL Tony

 

[Tony Hunter]

HooHaa.

 

[MarkCup]

Yeah but you're rubbish.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Yeah but you're rubbish.

LOL,evening Mark.

 

[MarkCup]

I want some of this free tuition you seem to be handing out!

Expenses for a round trip for you to Goodwood?

 

[Tony Hunter]

It's in France isn't it ?

Anyway you must have been there a thousand times,I'll think about it.

 

[MarkCup]

LOL at France!

It's not really the track I need to work on, more building the confidence to extract more from the car.

It's been quite a while since I had any tuition, and the last one was all about the track...wasn't interested in helping me push a little more.

You'd of course be more than welcome to take it round too...

 

[Sir_Dave]

Just can't see the point.

Lol.

Personally, i always heel & toe, whether it be on track, or on the daily 100 mile commute. Not only for mechanical sympathy, but for additional smoothness and control over the vehicle.

Not all techniques will be used in every corner of course, but being skilled at them all will give you more options when the time is right.

Mind you, im the type of person that trail brakes into the work car park in the morning, induces a bit of neutral handling ... & then eats my cornflakes ... so what would i know

 

[Ollie82.]

Heel and Toe. Swear by it. Find it slightly overkill to do it driving to the shops at 30mph mind you.....and those that claim they trail brake into the work car park....pfffft. What ev's!

 

[binkipower]

try double clutching when you heel and toe, otherwise the synchros will have to do the same work as without rev matching.
I'm amazed nobody thought about this; from 3rd 3000 rpm(engine and gearbox) will have to go to 2nd 4500 rpm(engine) gearbox is still doing <3000 rpm.
So mechanical sympathy clutch wise yes, synchro wise you'll have to double clutch.
Suddenly track work is hard work!

 

[mini_nick]

I dont know why people don't heel and toe, specially when doing track work, it makes it so much smoother and in my opinion gives you a far more controlled feel of the car.

Although I wasn't going balls out, here is a vid of my 197 at Cadwell with some heel and toe shifts

[youtube]uxGQpi0V1Ak[/youtube]

 

[Tony Hunter]

OK here's mine at Oulton.

 

[howler]

Real men don't need to use the clutch...

 

[Bob Leathem]

That Oulton video proves why heel and toe changes should not be done by most people, as most of the changes are totally mistimed and the revs are not matched properly. The crash was caused by the change in engine speed caused by the crap change just before the corner. The case being proven by the fact that you are still on the clutch when you entered the corner.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Lol,tis true,foot was on clutch but clutch wasn't engaged though.

 

[DanielJames]

never mastered the heel n toe!

 

[moynesyt5]

Just my two pence! Hope it hasnt been mentioned already. Heel and toe is a skills which once learnt and used often will become second nature. It keeps any car more stable under braking condition, saves clutch/g'box wear and before long you will be doing it without realising.

I spent my first years driving practicing heel and toe, left foot braking (great in FWD to tuck the nose in mid corner), lift off oversteer and balancing oversteer in my old 2.8i Capri (i was 18 and driving was everything...sad). Now I dont even think about any of these techniques and would recommend spending the time practicing, makes driving even more fun and the move to track work/motorsport far easier!!

As for the dealy in the throttle response i was at a well known rolling road recently who do alot of OEM mapping for one of the main manufacturers (no names sorry) pre model release. I brought up the subject of the delay on modern throttle plates and he told me this.

Due to a survey carried out few years back all cars are mapped with a throttle plate delay! The reason? The survey found that the majority of accidents were due to the driver not looking fully before moving off but noticing his mistake a split second later. So by introducing a delay in the throttle plate the car has only moving a few feet in instead of a few metres! He also told me that OEM will not even let him alter that part of the mapping no matter what else it stops him from achieving. Although he has played with other OEM throttle plates which feel like a cable throttle, the manufacturer always removes them before final mapping and locks that part of the ECU !! The nanny state strikes again.

 

[.GAZ.]

Cilo FTW.

 

[TomEdwards]

I find heel & tow in the 182 very difficult. The accelerator doesn't seem responsive enough to do it.

On my Cooper S it was a total DREAM to heel & toe.

Any tips for the 182?

Thanks

 

[Tony Hunter]

It's the FBW throttle, not as crisp as a cable one.

You'll get used to it.

 

[wag1]

No idea what this heel and toe involves

But TBH why does its make 'mechanical sympathy'?

A small blip of the throttle is enough to match the revs isnt it?

Plus surely hovering over both pedals could just end up with your foot slipping off the brake and onto the bloody throttle couldnt it

 

[Rhys Beal]

Once high up in the rpm, the 182 is fine. Low rpm the throttle is lazy

 

[Harpham]

You have hairy hands.

 

[TomEdwards]

No idea what this heel and toe involves

But TBH why does its make 'mechanical sympathy'?

A small blip of the throttle is enough to match the revs isnt it?

Plus surely hovering over both pedals could just end up with your foot slipping off the brake and onto the bloody throttle couldnt it

What if you need to slow down when down shifting? You can't 'blip the throttle' (foot on the gas accelerator) if you foot needs to be on the brake.

Thats the point in heel toe.

 

[Vicky.]

I've had my pedals relocated when it was switched over to cable, to the point where driving in chunky footwear means accidental braking and revving simultaneously (lol) but I know there's no chance I'll ever do this successfully.

It's ninja!

 

[karol_SVK]

Nice topic, I just try to learn H-T shifting on my 172, but simply cannot fit my shoes there properly
Rev matching I do on every car I drive.
I noticed that Jean has a wider brake pedal then OEM on the video.
I sit on the left of the car, maybe there are other "space" conditions.

Anybody lefty here with a foot of 11 and doing H-T shifting??

 

[Cliotoby]

My GT is the same. i can rev match - took me a while to perfect with the delay.

However, involve the brake at the same time and im in the same position as you.

A good hard stab with the right timing is sometimes best.