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heel & toe technique
- Thread starter IsvenII
- Start date
u use heel and toeing so when u are changin down gears u are able to blip the throttle so the car goes into the next gear smoothly
u turn ur right foot to the side so it covers both the brake and accellerator pedals,and when braking u push ur heel down to blip the throttle 2 engage the lower gear/s
u use it when u are slowin down to enter a corner fast,but take a while 2 get it right,dont practice at 90mph rount the local by pass lol
TDI tyre shreader
right u are braking hard into a corner u need a lower gear for the exit of the corner if you changed gear mid braking and slammed the clutch back you run the risk of locking the wheels. heel and toeing is the answer, when braking you press the gas down with the heel of your braking foot, whilst changing gear, to raise the revs which makes the gear change much smoother as the revs match the new gear speed, rather than jurking. Bit pointless for road driving unless you think yor colin mcrae or somthing just feed the clutch inrather than dump it. Although it does decrease clutch wear
Dont worry about double de-clutching it was for a time when syncromesh was invented and birds regulary destroyed gearboxes
show off^^^
Dont really see the point in doing it on a front wheel drive car other than to reduce wear on components but if you are driving hard enough to need to heel and toe you obviously dont care!
Ive never noticed any problems in an FWD on the track as the wheels dont lock due to all the weight being on them under braking. Not like a motorcycle or RWD where I have nearly come off the formal and spun the latter due to a rushed down change just before turning-in.
Also I find in most road cars the revs dont drop at all fast when you dip the clutch so unless you have a disability that results in you taking ten minutes to move the gear stick its definitely not a problem. In more high performance engines and on pretty much all four stroke motorcycles the revs will drop quick enough so that a blip before releasing the clutch is required. I would say that anyone that feels the need to do it in a Clio is simply trying to change down too early and a minor adjustment of driving style would suffice.
Street Triple R
i always blip the throttle on pretty much every down change, its just become habit now....as for proper heel and toeing, only do that when youre really going for it
and its a waste of time to double de-clutch in modern cars, as that was used years ago before cars had syncromeshes
Heel and Toe - A way to get a smoother downchange whilst braking. Technically(on the road anyway) you should brake to the speed you require for the corner, and then take the appropriate gear. On the race track(Or when you are going for it) it allows the driver to slow down and change gear at the same time.
Double De-Clutching - Not nessessary on the modern car due to the syncromesh. However, by doing this you are easing the strain on the mechanical components(but not wear on the drivers mat) It is very satisfying when you do change gear and you dont even feel it!!
I use both techniques because they help you concertrate on your driving, and when done correctly can make driving very smooth and enjoyable!!
PS Ive got a whole in my drivers mat now @ 44k miles!!!
Liquid yellow R26 F1
I agree with Eddd.. I Heel & Toe all the time.. well.. 99% of the time anyway..
.. not only saves, clutches, etc.. but dosent upset the car before turn in.. which makes the whole process a lot smoother..Its one of those tasks that you think you will "Never" get the hang of.. until one day it just all falls into place.. and you wonder why you didnt do it years ago.. Deff. worth the hassle/practise to learn..!
[Edited by James Bushell on 10 August 2004 at 11:35pm]
Hmmmmmmm!
The idea is to slow down for a corner and make sure that you are in the right gear to use a nice balance of power through the corner without making the car jerk voilently whilst downshifting.
Which wheels the power is delivered through shouldnt make any difference.
My driving style is much the same as Jons (my heel and toe tutor many years ago
). Match engine revs with the lower gear (blip) without even thinking, but only use heel and toe in an enthusiastic situation.
is the theory behind dbl clutching and heel-toe not the same?.. to match the wheel spin to the gears?
i would think that dbl clutching when you are approaching a gradual bend while heel-toe when you are doing a relative sharp/late turn-in
do you guys blip the throttle once? i have the tendency to blip it twice... am still a r****d when doing heel-toe
cant wait to master it and get some respectful timing on track.
MarkCup
ClioSport Club Member
I do it all the time onthe road or track too. As said above, once you get the hang of it, changing gear any other way doesnt seem natural.
For me its all about smoothness though, protecting the clutch by matching revs to road speed/gear etc.
I think I found it fairly easy to get to grips with from having a motorbike for years, where its much easier to give a little blip on a down-change.
As someone said theres no real need to do it on a FWD save for mechanical sympathy. Something which hardly gets mentioned on here is trail braking which is also a very important technique. Youll need to learn how to left foot brake which takes a while to get used to!
Double de-clutching is when you dont have synchros for the gears.
-Rob
As rob said, double declutching does NOT involve braking. It is mandatory in cars that have no synchromesh.
When you press the clutch and blip, all you increase is the engine revs, but when the car is in neutral and the clutch pedal is up, then engine spins the gearbox input shaft up to the same speed.
Only when the correct speed gearbox speed is reached will the lower gear engage. Synchromesh however does all this for you. It actually spins the lower gear up before its engaged. You can actually hear it working when dropping to first without a blip.
Couple of questions. I think I already do both of the above techniques, but just want to clarify. Double-clutching has been explained, put in neutral release clutch most of way, rev, switch into gear so if you get it right there is no jerk. Heel and toe though, is this when as you are braking and changing gear, as you are bringing the clutch up just before fully engaging, that is when you blip so it brings the revs up, you can then feel when the gear has matched and then fully engaging the clutch gives no jerk.
One other thing that has really been bugging me. In the Fast and Furious, during the first race where the underccover cop loses his car, Vin Diesel has a go at him for not double-clutching. Now as far as I can tell they were only accelerating, so I could see now point in his comment. I am right in thinking this???
Quote: Originally posted by jon_r on 11 August 2004
yup basically.Ever changed gear without the clutch? Next time you get a curtesy carhave a go
used to do that in my 205 when I was bored on journeys. Not nice when you dont match the revs, not only does it sound nasty but you look like a right div - quite cool if you get it right though.
Never tried it either of my clios though.
Its American my friend. Its a load of utter bo11ox. Double clutching while acceleration mean the change would take longer. Unless its there stupid term for when you "need" to accelerate fast so you change gear with the throttle flat to the floor without lifting so it keeps the revs high. Dont forget this is the same scene where they drag race for 1/4 mile and it takes about 30 seconds!! The same quote used to bother me too.
As for the subject of heel and toe its fairly easy to do but hard to master and get just right. This does slow you down slightly quiker as your using the engine to help you brake and the heel and toe helps you match engine to gear speed so its smoother so your car is more stable into the corner. Engine braking only makes much of a difference at higher speeds eg track speeds say 100mph+ as your brakes heat up on track on dont work as well so the engine braking helps you slow down from higher speeds faster.
On the road if your aproaching a corner at 110+ in a clio you should be braking very early and not waiting till the last minuite to break and have to blip the throttle on the downchange as if you hit gravel at high speeds and you havent left your self plenty of room to brake you will be making a wallet lightening mistake.
I think you boys are all living in fantasy land to be honest! The characteristics of the Clio (and most road cars) engine are such that when you lift off the throttle and dip the clutch the revs hardly fall at all. You move the gear stick down from say third to second and the revs are still up at 3 or 4k when you let out the clutch so why the heck do you need to blip the throttle?!?!?
You are either all too slow at moving the gear stick, changing down too early or not braking hard enough. Dont see why you need to put the car down to say 2nd at such a speed that its going to need to be up near 5krpm when you let the clutch out?!?!? Possibly on a track yes, but then as I said before it doesnt cause any problems what so ever in a front wheel drive car. You wont lose control, it wont upset the car as you turn-in and if you are worried about wear and tear dont go on the track!
On a lighter high performance engine like you would find in a sports motorcycle (4 stroke only) or racecar its an entirely different matter. As soon as you dip the clutch the rev needle shoots down (almost as quick as if you were revving it up) and if you let the clutch out it jerks badly and can lock the rear wheel or cause you to fall off/spin.
Sorry boys but the Clio aint that high tech! All thats gonna happen is some poor lad is gonna try this and it will all end in tears (or rather a ditch). The pedals are simply not set up for properly implementing the technique so dreams of being a racing driver aside you will brake harder and go faster if you stick to driving normally.
Er do you guys go down through the gears sequentially release the clutch in each gear or do you go straight from say 4th to 1st?
Do you never experience when driving fast approaching a bend or some other place where you need a lower gear, the jerk you get when going from 3rd or 4th say at 2500 rpm to 2nd or 3rd at say 4500rpm? This is what blipping the throttle gets rid of as it matches the revs for each gear therefore giving smooth, unsettling changes. It is something that while not essential on the road is useful in any manual car and in many situations to aid smooth driving.
However, heel and toeing, which is esp useful for cornering, is impossible in my 182 as the throttle pedal is about an inch lower than the brake - are they all like this?. Anyone who says they can do it well must have special shoes!
Street Triple R
sorry mate but i mostly disagree with what youve said, granted a lot of road cars do like you say, have a very slow fall in engine revs once youve dipped the clutch, however on lots of cars this isnt a problem at all its just a case of how you match the revs to the gear, if the revs fall slowly, u dont need to blip it as much, quite simple really
on my old 205 GTI (or my GSXR600) that i had the revs dropped instantly, you had to give it quite a bootful to get the revs to match (not the bike tho lol), you just adapt your style for each car
and as for the pedal set up, you will notice that a lot of cars have a extra little petrusion at the bottom of the throttle pedal specifically for heel and toe
i think that it is a fairly advanced technique though and i agree that it could end up with some drivers ending in ditches ect, the best way to practice is on the track
MarkCup
ClioSport Club Member
During the gear change how much speed will you have lost? Maybe 1 or 2 mph?
Go out into your car and see what your engine revs are in 2nd gear at, say, 20 miles an hour? Then try 19 mph in 1st?
Ive no idea what they are, but if 2nd is 4500 rpm isnt 1st going to be around 6500-7000 rpm?
So what difference does the revs dropping make when changin down??? You need them up to match the speed of the "incoming" gear. A blip would make the transition smoother, and it applies to all gears when coming down through the box. Thats why I heel and toe.
Is that clear enough?
[Edited by MarkCup on 11 August 2004 at 8:00pm]
If you lose 1 or 2mph during a gear change you are either changing gear in 1000th of a second or have dodgy brakes!!! Remember you are braking and decelerating hence the need to change down in the first place. You dont need to change down if you have only lost 1 or 2 mph unless you were in completely the wrong gear to start with. As I said you guys are changing down too early. Look:
4 stroke sports bike (or race car).
Push/Squeeze brakes, bike slows
5500rpm 3rd gear
Squeeze clutch and shut thottle ready for gear change
bike is still slowing down
Revs rapidly drop down to tickover levels
bike is still slowing down
Click the gear down
bike is still slowing down
Revs are now at 2000rpm, bike should be at 5000 in 2nd gear
Release clutch
Big jolt - you fall off in the wet on slight bend
Solution = blip thottle before changing down. Very natural and easy on a motorcycle.
Road car (or 2 stroke motorcycle)
Push brake, car slows
3000rpm 3rd gear
Push downclutch and lift thottle ready for gear change
car is still slowing down
Revs start falling s l o w l y
Move gear stick quickly
car is still slowing down
Revs are now at 2500rpm, car has slowed down a lot and should be at 3000 in 2nd gear
Release clutch
Nice smooth down change only a 500rpm differential - no point in blipping.
MarkCup
ClioSport Club Member
OK, I can see where you are coming from now.
For me though, when driving on the road, either fast or otherwise, I can honestly say theres a benefit to be had...my revs dont drop that slowly, and Im not always braking that hard.
Toypop, you are having trouble grasping the fact that we need to bring the revs up to a proper level and these are not close ratio boxes. Say Im approaching Aremberg at 170ish in 5th. I need to change down from 5th to 4th to 3rd, trailbraking the last bit. Heel toeing is the only way to do that smoothly.
Sure I could just bang it into the next lower gear, but that would do nothing for the longevity of the gearbox, clutch or engine. Nor would it help the balance of the car under threshold braking. It could in fact help to lock one of the fronts and give me a nice flatspot as well, not to mention a trip through the kitty litter and a taste of armco.
Matching revs is the way forward. Practice makes perfect.
Ill heel toe in my "fantasy" world. You can do whatever you like in yours.
Ed
I agree with Ed, once pass down the clutch, the revs will drop, especially with a lighten flywheel, it drop so quick, need heel and toe for sure.. Dont want the car "jerk" once I release the clutch, especially doing high speed before entering a slow speed corner and need to change to lower gears.
Btw, I learn the heal and toe from my evo at first, coz the Japanese car pedal kind of closer to each other and is at the same level, also the throttle pedal is not as hard, which is different from the clio. So it make life easier.
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