Heel Toeing in a 182?

[Sir_Dave]

As Brad has questioned Fred's knowledge, id be very interested to find out his experience as well ... my guess is that its probably a lot greater than most peoples on here lol.

People also appear to have failed to grasp that rally, road & track driving are all quite different in their principles - i cant remember the last time i used a scandinavian flick at Brand Hatch for example ...

And yes, heel & toe is most beneficial in RWD, but imho, it offers an improvement in your ultimate balance, adjustability, braking consistency & of course, mechanical sympathy in a FWD car.

I'm no professional mind you.

 

[Jamie]

He's a biology teacher as far as I am aware.

 

[Nick 182]

Did i not say it was used to prevent wear? But of dog rings, not a syncromesh. Changing gear at too low a revs or too slowly will damage dog rings. Changing too quickly will damage a synchromesh. I think you are a little confused.

Your boxes are not made of chocolate, they are adequate for the job of driving your car on the road as it was intended. They will last for hundreds of thousands of miles of spirited, but legal and safe driving. However, people abuse their car and drive them like they are on track and wonder why the things break. The things that will damage a synchromesh gearbox is attempting to change gear faster then the box will allow. That is why race cars usedog rings as they increase the speed of changes. As such you have to drive them differently. Copying what you see a pro driver do with a dog ring box in your synchromesh box is probably not the wisest use of logic ever is it?

Not trying to take sides or anything here in this banterous thread of mine, but id like to entrust myself with Brad and his knowledge for a mo and ask him a question...

As you say, "the things that will damage a synchromesh gearbox is attempting to change gear faster than the box will allow". Does blipping the throttle on a down-shift not speed up the synchromesh itself as it tries to match the speed of the gear with the speed of the wheels and in doing so save mechanical wear whilst it is sped up under no load conditions, where otherwise if you were to ram home the lower gear without blipping, the synchromesh would have to rely upon mechanical contact?

 

[Gorms]

No idea about heel or toe but i have learnt a lot from this thread, but dont think im gonna give it a go as i know what will happen.

BUT...

I wanna brad for christmas!!!!!

Can we keep this one please!!!!! please dont ban him.

Paul

 

[Tav]

It doesnt look like Jean is too worried about smoothness to me. Maybe you should write to him and let him know he is too agressive. Notice that the rear wheels are locking on the corners. Is is trying to destabilise the car with the handbrake. I suggest you go through youtube and watch some rally vids and see how they abuse the steering wheel just before a corner. Why would they heel toe to mantain 'smoothness' then yank up the handbrake to get the back out? Come on dont be so stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCIOGlllGDw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5v-OhjiBDg

You complete contradict yourself. He IS worried about smoothness...not weight transition in this case but the smoothness of engaging the dogs. Also this Jean chap seems pretty handy behind the wheel, so perhaps he is capable of deciding that he wants to upset the car with the handbrake (acting on the rear wheels) but would like to heel toe to stop the front wheels decelerating even more.

I'm going to try and summarise the info. in this thread so it's actually useful...

BENEFITS

Mechanical Sympathy

• It avoids using the clutch as another braking surface which will obviously wear it prematurely.
• Avoids unnecessary stress and strain on gear box internals as the speeds of input and output are matched before re-engaging the clutch rather than being forced to match.
• It allows you to rev match for non-syncro (dog) boxes which as you've stated helps engage the gears and reduces wear. This is equally applicable to a syncro box as you're not working the syncros so hard. It easier for them to match a difference of 100rpm rather than 2500rpm.

Balance & Smoothness

• Prevents extra weight transfer unsettling the balance of the car when re-engaging the clutch. Important when braking hard into a corner. If you're on track you'll often be braking on the threshold of grip/slip and a non-matched shift might be enough to lock the wheels.
• Also of benefit to passengers, a seamless shift is much more comfortable as your head isn't thrown forward as if someone just pressed the brakes even harder. One of the main reasons to use it on road as well as track!
• Prevents locking the rear wheels in a rear wheel drive car.

Skill

• It's fun to learn new skills and put them into practice. Be that heel & toe, left foot braking or taking an advanced driving course.

THE TECHNIQUE

Pivot w/heel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4

Pivot w/side: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4

The videos above show the two main techniques. You can pivot on the ball of your foot and use the side of your heel or you can 'roll' the side of your foot across. Although the name suggests toe I would avoid trying to use your big toe for braking. The most important part of the maneuver is the braking. Safety first and all that. So I would use the ball of your foot under your big toe.

The Clio is one of the best cars to heel and toe in that I have driven. If you're having trouble doing it then it's likely to be down to inexperience rather than the type of shoes or the size of your feet.

Some cars will not allow you to heel and toe and they cut the throttle when you brake...modern VW's for example. Useless.

I would say that when driving the thinner the shoe the better, skate shoes have thick soles and give you no feel what so ever. If you heel toe properly you don't need the extra width of a special pedal or a big pair of shoes.

Would it be a good idea to create some threads that have factual information on advanced road and race craft driving techniques so people can fully understand the benefits of these techniques? If that is the case we can gather together all the info, filter out the rubbish and create an FAQ that is factual and informative?

An understanding of what goes on inside and engine and gear box will be of great help to full understanding the technique.

 

[benmore]

^ 'nuff said tbh. that summed it up perfectly.

 

[bradharding24]

You complete contradict yourself. He IS worried about smoothness...not weight transition in this case but the smoothness of engaging the dogs. Also this Jean chap seems pretty handy behind the wheel, so perhaps he is capable of deciding that he wants to upset the car with the handbrake (acting on the rear wheels) but would like to heel toe to stop the front wheels decelerating even more.

I'm going to try and summarise the info. in this thread so it's actually useful...

BENEFITS

Mechanical Sympathy

• It avoids using the clutch as another braking surface which will obviously wear it prematurely.
• Avoids unnecessary stress and strain on gear box internals as the speeds of input and output are matched before re-engaging the clutch rather than being forced to match.
• It allows you to rev match for non-syncro (dog) boxes which as you've stated helps engage the gears and reduces wear. This is equally applicable to a syncro box as you're not working the syncros so hard. It easier for them to match a difference of 100rpm rather than 2500rpm.

Balance & Smoothness

• Prevents extra weight transfer unsettling the balance of the car when re-engaging the clutch. Important when braking hard into a corner. If you're on track you'll often be braking on the threshold of grip/slip and a non-matched shift might be enough to lock the wheels.
• Also of benefit to passengers, a seamless shift is much more comfortable as your head isn't thrown forward as if someone just pressed the brakes even harder. One of the main reasons to use it on road as well as track!
• Prevents locking the rear wheels in a rear wheel drive car.

Skill

• It's fun to learn new skills and put them into practice. Be that heel & toe, left foot braking or taking an advanced driving course.

THE TECHNIQUE

Pivot w/heel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4

Pivot w/side: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4

The videos above show the two main techniques. You can pivot on the ball of your foot and use the side of your heel or you can 'roll' the side of your foot across. Although the name suggests toe I would avoid trying to use your big toe for braking. The most important part of the maneuver is the braking. Safety first and all that. So I would use the ball of your foot under your big toe.

The Clio is one of the best cars to heel and toe in that I have driven. If you're having trouble doing it then it's likely to be down to inexperience rather than the type of shoes or the size of your feet.

Some cars will not allow you to heel and toe and they cut the throttle when you brake...modern VW's for example. Useless.

I would say that when driving the thinner the shoe the better, skate shoes have thick soles and give you no feel what so ever. If you heel toe properly you don't need the extra width of a special pedal or a big pair of shoes.

Would it be a good idea to create some threads that have factual information on advanced road and race craft driving techniques so people can fully understand the benefits of these techniques? If that is the case we can gather together all the info, filter out the rubbish and create an FAQ that is factual and informative?

An understanding of what goes on inside and engine and gear box will be of great help to full understanding the technique.

As you said he wants smoothness in the gearbox to allow the dogs to engage without damage, but he is NOT heel toeing because he wants smoothness in the car (as can be quite clearly seen by the rolling and pitching his is deliberately attempting to instill in the car at ever corner). A small point, but one that people in this discussion seem to have an inability to grasp.

You also have to remember that rally cars have ultra small power bands at the top of the rev range. If the revs dropped the dogs simply wouldnt engage properly. Same applies to turbo rally cars. You heel toe to keep the car on boost.

Taking these uses for heel toeing and justifying its application to a raod car with a syncromesh gearbox and wide power band is a LAME argument.

But, I am sure you can convince yourself if you try really really hard that you need to do it and you may even convince other as well. But you wont ever convince me, so i dont know why you try.

I heel toed in my mr2 and my silvia, i dont in any of my fwd cars.

 

[ForceIndia]

Dude, what are your qualifications? Been asked enough, stop avoiding the question ffs.

 

[bradharding24]

Dude, what are your qualifications? Been asked enough, stop avoiding the question ffs.

My qualification is that i know my stuff and have a sound argument. That is all you need to know.

 

[ForceIndia]

I think we all guessed as much.

 

[bradharding24]

I think we all guessed as much.

Guessing is what gets you 25% on a multiple choice science paper. Its the people who know the answers that get 100%.

 

[ForceIndia]

Ok.

 

[alanc1000]

LOL at Brad. I know nothing about heal toeing but can spot a blagger a mile off.

Come on Brad, what makes you more qualified than others who use this technique, as you seem to be implying they are all wrong. My guess is you are about as qualified to comment on it as me, which is zero.

 

[Craigus]

My qualification is that i know my stuff and have a sound argument. That is all you need to know.

Lol, just read most of this thread, you must be the only person in the world that thinks there is no benefit in heel toeing.

Thats what people say when, in this case they have no qualifications, or are trying to avoid the subject.

 

[Pinkorstink]

Back off guys, Brad says:-

He can calculate the downforce of a 197 diffuser by a photograph.
He knows that four pot's are completely uneccesary on a Clio
His understanding around heel & toe'ing is on a different level to what anyone else can comprehend.
Evo editors know less than Barry in the bar

If he says so then that's good enough for me. Move over Chuck, Brad's in town.

 

[bradharding24]

Lol, just read most of this thread, you must be the only person in the world that thinks there is no benefit in heel toeing.

Yeah, although if you could read you would see that i said there was a benefit. Just not in a fwd tin can road car.

 

[bradharding24]

Back off guys, Brad says:-

He can calculate the downforce of a 197 diffuser by a photograph.
He knows that four pot's are completely uneccesary on a Clio
His understanding around heel & toe'ing is on a different level to what anyone else can comprehend.
Evo editors know less than Barry in the bar

If he says so then that's good enough for me. Move over Chuck, Brad's in town.

1. Not calculate, estimate. Here is my quick estimation (Downforce = 0 )

2. 4 pots are waste of time on a road car like the clio

3. I said heel toeing is beneficial, just not in mcdonalds car park

4. Evo editor ran over his own dog (true story), so does that make him a good driver?

 

[Pinkorstink]

1. Not calculate, estimate. Here is my quick estimation (Downforce = 0 )

2. 4 pots are waste of time on a road car like the clio

3. I said heel toeing is beneficial, just not in mcdonalds car park

4. Evo editor ran over his own dog (true story), so does that make him a good driver?

I'm with you Brad I really am. You're the man.

 

[Henry]

where's your experience? i think people are genuinely interested. you seem keen on rallying

 

[WillyWonka]

Those who can't, teach?

aren't you a teacher????

 

[2 live]

never felt the need to tbh..


[youtube]lzQAHe-Z1lI[/youtube]

 

[LouisQ]

To be fair the diffuser doesnt increase downforce... It aids stability at high speed and looks pretty.

I'll stick by my argument on Heel toeing. I've done enough trackdays in an FWD car with and without heel toeing to know whether its benificial. And of course, it is

 

[Damo_Sport]

i tried heel toe and i just kept on hitting the brake to hard :S

Anyone got any tips or a vid on how to do it

 

[LouisQ]

Trick is to roll your foot or 'flick' it. Your using your little toe or part of the right hand side of your foot flicking on the throttle as you press the brake down with the ball of your foot. Practice will get it, eventually you'll be able to do it under very minimal braking (not that its neccessary then)

 

[Chris n nic]

Lol wow this is like a trip back 5 or 6 years...and I can't believe I didn't recognise the 'style' that brad ouzes...classic!

lol @ evo guy running a dog over making him a bad driver....did you see that Mcrae guy (rip ) he was s**t...crashed loads so clearly didn't know what he was doing

 

[Ian_182]

This is just like talking to stromba years ago.

 

[Sir_Dave]

So Brad.

Qualifications? Do you race, are you an instructor, etc.

If you do, but you wish to remain anonymous, im afraid your just going to make yourself look like a tool in this thread, your opinions are quite different to everyone else ... so if you are actually even vaguely qualified in this field, people may listen to you if you 'actually practice what you preach' ...

 

[scala]

A qualified professional or journalsit wouldn't waste time trolling around internet forums.

A wannabe would almost definetly.

 

[ForceIndia]

Coming across as a keyboard warrior. Happy to question the qualifications used to form others opinions, yet taking every action possible to reveal his own. Sackless jessy.

 

[2 live]

thts stromba down to tee ^^^^^^^^^^ lol

the sackless jessy bit

 

[ForceIndia]

Coming across as a keyboard warrior. Happy to question the qualifications used to form others opinions, yet taking every action possible to AVOID reveal his own. Sackless jessy.

Edited my own twattish iphone spelling.

 

[Weeman]

I can even do it in the volvo, clios = easy.

Oh what did I miss is Stromba back?

 

[simon135]

Can't believe I missed this one, hilarious.

Of course heel and toe is beneficial, even if not always entirely necessary.

I do it on the road in my Clio not because I think it's quicker or because my gear box will fall about, but because of finesse. It also means it becomes second nature when I'm on track in my Elise.

Practice makes perfect and all that, but it really is a doddle in the Clio. By the time you're braking with any sort of force, the throttle is in easy reach to tickle with a little roll of the foot and that's with my tiny size 6 feet.

One issue not mentioned thus far though, fuel consumption. I recall reading an article (I believe it was Mark Hales in Circuit Driver, but don't hold me to that) where team orders in an endurance race were not to blip the throttle as the extra fuel consumption outweighed the benefits of the technique. Just thought I throw that one in so someone can use it evidence that heel and toe is not only pointless, it's the cause of global warming!

 

[Jonny1*2]

lol this is quite funny. Even more funny was admin not locking it because of this.lol

I'm not mechanic, but blipping on downshift for me makes the car much more drivable. It makes the car feel much more stable and i'm sure the GB loves me for it

Brad just tell everyone why we should listen to you? get the qualifications up

 

[simon135]

As I'm sat here in the office waiting for a system upgrade to complete, I've had time to think about this some more.

First, I'm all for a good discussion, it helps stop the scourge of forums - regurgitated hearsay turning from folklore to fact.

However, WTF does someone’s literary skills have to do their ability to drive properly. Or did I miss the change to the racing calendar where the British GP is to be replaced by an F1 spelling bee!

To clarify one point, most of the benefits being attributed to heel and toe are actually the benefits of correctly matching the engine revs to the current vehicle speed and selected gear.

Rev matching is mechanically sympathetic and is required to maintain a stable and controlled vehicle. This is irrespective of which wheels are being driven. Anyone who disputes that clearly knows jack!

Revs should be matched when going both up and down the gears. That's why the sympathetic and smooth driver lifts off the throttle and waits a fraction before selecting a higher gear.

When changing down we could brake first to the desired speed, release the brake, then select the appropriate gear using one foot for the clutch and one for the throttle - to raise the engine speed to the correct level.

However, when driving in a more spirited fashion, we don't have time to complete the braking task before we start changing gear. Hence, unless you happen to have three feet, the need to use the heel and toe technique.

The question of qualifications have been raised, as no one is likely to accept my 'O' level in woodwork as appropriate, and I haven’t yet attained the HPC Gold Standard award (for which the ability to heel and tow is a requirement) I'll have to report on my experience as a passenger. I have had the pleasure of sitting next to some pretty well qualified people including:

Don Palmer - car control guru
Simon de Banke - world record holder for driving sideways (I believe it was 2 hours 11mins or so when he ran out of fuel) and general top bloke
Gavin Kershaw - Lotus test driver and winner of many a race

I can confirm that they all heal and tow

 

[markhinton]

Heel and toe is easy tbh. When I moved from my Fiesta to the Clio I had to adapt it slightly, but even with my size 13 feet I don't seem to have a problem!

 

[Jonny1*2]

I'd do what D4ve and enlarge his accelerator pedal. Wouldn't know where to start myself, but definately would make it easier. As said, narrow shoes make it harder.

 

[Tav]

I'd do what D4ve and enlarge his accelerator pedal. Wouldn't know where to start myself, but definately would make it easier. As said, narrow shoes make it harder.

Would it not be better to learn the proper technique so that you don't have to modify the pedal of every car you drive? Likewise relying on large shoes which are generally s**t for driving is not going to help in the long run.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Would it not be better to learn the proper technique so that you don't have to modify the pedal of every car you drive? Likewise relying on large shoes which are generally s**t for driving is not going to help in the long run.

True. Just an option

 

[dzm]

Would it not be better to learn the proper technique so that you don't have to modify the pedal of every car you drive? Likewise relying on large shoes which are generally s**t for driving is not going to help in the long run.

Different cars have different pedal spacing. Even different cars of the same make and model have different pedal spacing. Consequently some are easier than others to heal and toe.

This is what I did with my 182 throttle pedal to make it easier:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=358165