My first track day - braking disaster!!!!

[box car willy]

hello forum guru's

I did my first stint on track yesterday up at Knockhill, it went breast up very quickly :clown:

i had a driving experience booked where i got to do 25 laps in my own car with one of their instructors sitting next to me showing me what to do. I had a young guy called Rory with me, he was the top babana, hats off to your Rory if you read this

anyways.....

out we go with me driving for 3 laps.... I've got a 172Cup with standard brakes (disks and pads new about 1k miles ago) all round... we do the 3 laps and pull in for Rory to take over and show me what to do for a further 3 laps. the brakes seemed "ok" when i drove, not brilliant but just ok. Rory gets in and really shows me how to drive it :star: the brakes last 1 lap and then give up the ghost completely .... he brings it back in to the pits and says he can't drive it any more as it's too dangerous to be out on track... he said we'll be going in to the hairpin and be carrying straight on in a couple of laps more

he makes a phone call to the boss and they said i can go away, get my brakes sorted and they'll rebook me in for the whole experience again free of charge, top offer indeed by the boys at Knockhill, many thanks go out to them for this

this brings me to my questions.....

I need uprated brakes for spirited road driving and the odd track day ( i loved the 3 laps i did so much that i know i'll be doing some track days once it's sorted) what do i need?

can i keep the standard disks and just get uprated pads? do i need to get some uprated disks as well as uprated pads?

I was thinking of getting the brake fluid changed to Dot5.1 as well, good idea? and braded brake lines, again is this worth it?

what pads to people suggest? I prefer to not have pads that are squeeling during normal road driving, i've heard that DS2500's squeel alot, how about some Yellow Stuff pads? are they good? do they squeel?

i take it the rear's can just be left standard and it's the fronts a need to get sorted?

many thanks folks

 

[Fletcher]

I go for this set-up

Ferodo DS2500 pads
Brembo HC discs
Goodbridge braided lines.

Or get some 4 pots

 

[DKoo2009]

id upgrade all your braking system personally if your going to be going on track..

you want grooved disks to keep tempratures down, and yea like you said you want the best pads, and best fluid when on the track aswell.... its your life in your hands when it comes to your brakes

 

[Peperami]

I go for this set-up

Ferodo DS2500 pads
Brembo HC discs
Goodbridge braided lines.

Or get some 4 pots

Yep, although i found brembo max's squealed a lot less (if at all) in comparison to the hc's. Be a little better for track use too.

The ds2500's are the perfect cross over road/ track pad mate.

 

[Inferno]

DS2500's don't squeel a lot. I'm surprised your standard set up gave up so quickly though, shouldn't be that bad.

 

[pip.]

I think I'd be curious why my brakes had totally faded after 3 lap TBH.
Knockhill isn't a seriously heavy braking circuit iirc, and 3 laps aint much.
Still, a total upgrade should remove any glitches it has.

In the meantime I'd have a look to see if you've boiled your brake fluid.
Might need a change in the meantime.

 

[Fletcher]

I think I'd be curious why my brakes had totally faded after 3 lap TBH.
Knockhill isn't a seriously heavy braking circuit iirc, and 3 laps aint much.
Still, a total upgrade should remove any glitches it has.

In the meantime I'd have a look to see if you've boiled your brake fluid.
Might need a change in the meantime.

Sounds like the brake fluid needs changing.

 

[Evil Ally]

What driving experience was it? Sounds good....

The standard brakes are prone to fade when pushed, but you should get some fun out of them. Is it OE pads you have, or have they been replaced with cheap pads at some stage?

Ferrodo DS2500 for pads, good fade resistance. Brembo HC discs, or standard discs (Brembo are usually cheaper). Might as well go for braided lines as well. Dot 4 fluid is fine, don't bother with dot 5. I think K-Tec do a discounted package for Cliosport owners which would suit.

I go to the Dreadnought/SIDC/Track Scotland days at Knockhill, drop me line if you're over.

 

[Evil Ally]

Regarding squeeking, the DS2500 should produce little to no squeeking if you remove the caliper shims, clean everything properly and apply copper slip.

 

[Riley!]

if your doing it on a budget all you need is good pads and good fluid

 

[MarkCup]

...(disks and pads new about 1k miles ago)...

When was the last time your brake fluid was changed and/or bled?

Sounds to me like the fluid and lines are what let you down...meaning your foot pressure on the pedal didn't translate to enough pad pressure on the disc.

If the fluid's fairly old...just get braided lines and a fluid change or fresh bleed, go out again and see how you get on.

 

[box car willy]

Thanks for the advice folks

I've had the car for 2 years and i've not had the brake fluid changed, so i would guess it's not had a change ever!!!

i'll get some new fluid put in, get some braided lines put on and get some new pads in on the standard disks, that should be good enough?

http://www.knockhill.com/vouchers/index.php

the driving experience i had is in the First Gear section, it's the Performance Driving Course, it's my first time out on a track so i thought it would be good to get some propper tuition from the start. I can really recommend it, they seemed very professional and eager to get you going in a fast, safe way :star:

I'll be doing more "proper" track days ASAP... anybody else on here do them at Knockhill?

Evil Alley, have you got any info on the days you do? cheers !!

 

[Evil Ally]

Cheers mate,

Did you put the car into a garage to get the brakes done? It sounds to me like they used the cheapest pads to get the job done. I had a set of cheapies for a few days and they faded after 2 corners on track.

For trackdays avoid the ones Knockhill run unless you want to take your car home in a bin bag, go to these instead:

http://www.dreadnoughtgarage.co.uk/tracknights_at_knockhill.htm
http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/ (check forum for dates)
http://www.sidc.co.uk/shop/

The above are all very well run and behaved, you often get free instruction at them as well

 

[Riley!]

dont get stock pads they will fade. Get some Ferrodo ds2500 or if you want cheaper atleast some EBC Redstuff. Btw you only need to worry about fronts. Standard discs should hold up if your a first time tracker. A hard enough session would warp them

 

[Steve]

if your doing it on a budget all you need is good pads and good fluid

+1

Sounds to me like your fluid boiled up, pedal to the floor moment?

 

[box car willy]

Cheers mate,

Did you put the car into a garage to get the brakes done? It sounds to me like they used the cheapest pads to get the job done. I had a set of cheapies for a few days and they faded after 2 corners on track.

For trackdays avoid the ones Knockhill run unless you want to take your car home in a bin bag, go to these instead:

http://www.dreadnoughtgarage.co.uk/tracknights_at_knockhill.htm
http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/ (check forum for dates)
http://www.sidc.co.uk/shop/

The above are all very well run and behaved, you often get free instruction at them as well

yeah, it was a local none renault garage that fitted the pads and disks, he supplied them from his own supplier, so was probably the cheapest pads you can buy

thanks for the info, i'll certainly look in to coming to some of the track days run by those people I'll let you know which ones and perhaps see you there if you're going yourself?

 

[box car willy]

dont get stock pads they will fade. Get some Ferrodo ds2500 or if you want cheaper atleast some EBC Redstuff. Btw you only need to worry about fronts. Standard discs should hold up if your a first time tracker. A hard enough session would warp them

standard on the rear you mean?

 

[box car willy]

+1

Sounds to me like your fluid boiled up, pedal to the floor moment?

not really to the floor, just an initial bit of bite, then not much after that and then almost gliding to a stop

 

[Riley!]

standard on the rear you mean?

oops yep. I defo meant the rears lol

 

[box car willy]

oops yep. I defo meant the rears lol

ah right, LOL

 

[box car willy]

erm....

how much brake fluid do i need to buy for a complete change?

 

[Riley!]

whole system holds 1.1 liters so go for 2 liters worth fella

 

[box car willy]

nice one, just having a look on opie oils at the moment... i'll check all the other usual suspects as well

 

[Riley!]

http://shop.instant-shop.com/JRT-Automotive/product1250649catno690649.html

ate super racing blue, heard nothing but awesome results and that link is to the cheapest place you will find it anywhere. Most places charge £20 upwards per liter

 

[Riley!]

its blue also so good for bleeding as you can see it come threw

 

[box car willy]

thanks for the link

so.....

standard rear disks and pads
braided lines all round
fresh brake fluid
standard front disks
ds2500 front pads

sound good?

 

[Riley!]

sounds good. Just dont buy cheap fluid

Just a note, are they cheap discs too? just if you can afford another £50 get some brembo h/c(high carbon) discs on front

 

[MarkCup]

Cheap fluid can work fine. I run with the basic stuff Peugeot sell over their parts counter and it's survived 3 hard trackdays without a bleed and without showing the slightest sign of sponginess.

It comes in 250ml bottles too so you only need buy 1.25 litres for a full flush/change.

 

[Fred@BTM]

and if DS2500's squeal then they've been fitted wrongly

 

[box car willy]

and if DS2500's squeal then they've been fitted wrongly

I noticed on a previous topic that you said the shims should be removed when fitting, also that the backs of the pads should be filed down? why file the backs down if you don't mind me asking

thanks

 

[homer simpson]

I noticed on a previous topic that you said the shims should be removed when fitting, also that the backs of the pads should be filed down? why file the backs down if you don't mind me asking

thanks

if you need to file down any part of the pad then they are fitted incorrectly just make shore they have the shims removed and get them threw a heat cycle

 

[Inferno]

if you need to file down any part of the pad then they are fitted incorrectly just make shore they have the shims removed and get them threw a heat cycle

If you mean backing plate when your say pad - you're wrong.

 

[Fred@BTM]

99% of the time you have to file the edges of the back plate down to allow for HOT clearance (this expand when hot)

i'm on about back plate NOT the pad material

 

[2 live]

as fred says......ds 2500s dont squeel.

unlike most of my passengers

 

[Ralphizzle]

Ferodo DS2500 pads and Brembo HC discs should do the trick over the standard issue. Got mines fitted with these.

Perhaps your pads need some deglazing too...

 

[Day]

Yep, although i found brembo max's squealed a lot less (if at all) in comparison to the hc's. Be a little better for track use too.

The ds2500's are the perfect cross over road/ track pad mate.

Agreed, HC's not worth the extra cash on the discs in my experience.

 

[Rabbit1986]

Thanks guys, I'll keep that in mind for the next trackday.

Anyone knows if it is possible to disable the rear lights from signaling an emergency stop :rasp:

 

[Ralphizzle]

Err. remove the correct fuse? LOL

 

[box car willy]

its blue also so good for bleeding as you can see it come threw

just ordered 2 litres, cheers!