Next time you are asked to shoot for free.......

[planetx]

Spare a thought for the Pro's trying to make a living.
I found myself stuck in this position so often, but yet was trumped by the fact my images HAD to go out FREE due to Crown Coyright issues.

Interesting rant though, and one a Pr Snapper faces daily.

Dan-take note, because your work is worthy of payment.

http://tonysleep.co.uk/node/687

 

[Andy.]

Agree 100%. Whilst I'm not trying to make a living out of photography, I refuse to give my work away for free as other people are.

I took some photos of a massive fire near us a while back, stuck them up on flickr and twitter within 10 minutes and was contacted by quite a few sites who wanted to use my images and video. None of them wanted to pay for the images so I refused to let the images go.

Nobody remembers the name of the photographer who took that photo a photo for the paper or on the site once, and no new work comes in from in it, so you just end up spoiling somebody elses day who actually tries to earn a living from it.

How are you finding it now that you are doing your own thing?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

A fair point, however don't dismiss the fact that some people are happy to be recognised and see their work used without seeking any financial gain.

Whilst you say a picture is worth money, others might see it differently and who's to say either of you are wrong?

 

[welshname]

A fair point, however don't dismiss the fact that some people are happy to be recognised and see their work used without seeking any financial gain.

Whilst you say a picture is worth money, others might see it differently and who's to say either of you are wrong?

All pictures are worth money. It's a matter of fact, anything is worth money to the right person.

 

[planetx]

Funny thing is Andy, I am now a full time Chauffeur lol.

I haven't picked up a camera since March, its a hard thing to explain- but the ghosts of Afghan came back a few times- and I kind of blamed things on my photography - its a long story.

However I have picked myself back up, and have a god job that pays me well.

I plan to get myself a little camera "D700 ish" in the summer and let it continue on as my hobby.

Something that people always seem to forget with military photographers are "someone had to be there to take the photo" - up until last year we as photographers/cameramen had very little support. We just got bundled on flights to wherever in the world to shoot images of whatever for whoever.......and sometime that bites you on the ass.

I sat down and went through my archives and reckon I shot in the region of 100 dead guys!!!!! Through repatriations,funerals,hospital/operation theatres/, etc.

But I am all good now.

 

[Eddie.]

All pictures are worth money. It's a matter of fact, anything is worth money to the right person.

Yeah but I agree with the idea that some people simply want to see their work out there, and sometimes people won't pay for it. Bit like a new band saying we want to become famous but we are not willing to do the pubs and clubs.

So the x-factor then?!

 

[planetx]

Even a prostitute charges.......so why should a Photographer want to position themself lower than that?

 

[dunganick]

I dont think anyone could disagree. (or not...)

There are just too many people out there doing it for fun. My area is particually frustrating, lots of people want the access to the races, they all need to have letter of accreditations from a publication - so everyone works for 1 paper for free to secure this. This means every paper has several photographers wanting to work for free - the short of it, non unique images have no value to papers at all. The same goes for fan websites.

However, business models do change with changes in technology and access - certain areas of the industry will have near 0 true professionals soon. Sad but true.

As a part time photographer i will continue to charge for all my work, if i charge competitively for my work and i win clients on merit of my photography or business i have no issues with taking work off full time 'professionals'.

 

[Eddie.]

Even a prostitute charges.......so why should a Photographer want to position themself lower than that?

Might not want to seek financial gain, a sense of self, and a sense of happiness by seeing his/her work out there.

That said, nobody should be expected to work for nothing. Its a choice. If you work and expect to be paid, then it needs agreeing. If someone promises you pay and then dosnt pay you then that's wrong.

 

[planetx]

That's a good point Nick.

But at least you are keeping the demand for paid work alive.

 

[bully]

This has been on here before but worth exploring again I suppose.

Only thing I will say, as a start up business (I will actually do my own pics) if a photog helped me in the beginning then when I was up and running and a bit more successful then I would put anymore work their way but paid.

That said, if they kept helping out starters and no one made it then a lot of their work would be for free.

Need to pick and choose I suppose.

 

[planetx]

Ooops sorry if it is a repost - my bad

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Even a prostitute charges.......so why should a Photographer want to position themself lower than that?

That's not a comparison at all. Anyone can pick up a camera and learn how to take pictures, many people take it up as a hobby and are happy enough with being recognised for a good job.

It's not like it used to be where only 'the pros' would have access to high end bodies and lens'. These days you can walk into Jessops and walk out with enough gear to do a professional photo shoot.

I'm not saying all photos should be free or not, but you shouldn't be surprised when people will undercut you these days.

 

[Andy.]

A fair point, however don't dismiss the fact that some people are happy to be recognised and see their work used without seeking any financial gain.

Whilst you say a picture is worth money, others might see it differently and who's to say either of you are wrong?

There are thousands of people who are happy to be recognised for their work, which is why pros find it so hard to earn a living. I would love to be able to make a living from photography, but having dipped my feet in the water last year, there is no way I would do it full time.
If somebody offered to do your job for nothing, just so that they could tell their mates that they did it, and got a pat on the back from somebody, I'd imagine that you'd be a bit pissed when your boss told you that he didn't want to pay you for your work any more and that you should do it all for recognition instead of money too.

Funny thing is Andy, I am now a full time Chauffeur lol.

I haven't picked up a camera since March, its a hard thing to explain- but the ghosts of Afghan came back a few times- and I kind of blamed things on my photography - its a long story.

However I have picked myself back up, and have a god job that pays me well.

I plan to get myself a little camera "D700 ish" in the summer and let it continue on as my hobby.

Something that people always seem to forget with military photographers are "someone had to be there to take the photo" - up until last year we as photographers/cameramen had very little support. We just got bundled on flights to wherever in the world to shoot images of whatever for whoever.......and sometime that bites you on the ass.

I sat down and went through my archives and reckon I shot in the region of 100 dead guys!!!!! Through repatriations,funerals,hospital/operation theatres/, etc.

But I am all good now.

Sorry to hear that. I've only dealt with one traumatic experience and know how it comes back to haunt you, I can't quite imagine what it would be like 100 times over.
Good that things are looking up though, look forward to seeing your hobby shots!

 

[DanFreemanPhoto]

I'm probably the worst for this.

Even at New Years Eve (whilst slightly tipsy) I offered a mate a photoshoot of their 15 month child in our studio at work....for free!

I still think it's because I'm not confident in myself enough to charge people for my photos. Either that or I'm just such a nice guy!

 

[Laura]

You know once you've published them on Flickr and the likes you have effectively given them away anyway unless u copy wwrite them through Getty images or sImilar

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

If somebody offered to do your job for nothing, just so that they could tell their mates that they did it, and got a pat on the back from somebody, I'd imagine that you'd be a bit pissed when your boss told you that he didn't want to pay you for your work any more and that you should do it all for recognition instead of money too.

Bit of a pointless arguement, can't imagine anyone would want to do my job for nothing. It's supply and demand in it's purest form. Why would Burger King employ people for £10 an hour when there are people that will do the same job for minimum wage?

If they could pay less they probably would since there are people out there desperate for work, but then there are laws against that of course. Nothing of the sort concerning photography and without meaning to sound blunt, why should there be?

 

[Andy.]

You know once you've published them on Flickr and the likes you have effectively given them away anyway unless u copy wwrite them through Getty images or sImilar

Not true. You can set the default creative commons licence for your photos or change it per image. If you set it to "all rights reserved", then it cannot be reproduced or used without your permission.

Bit of a pointless arguement, can't imagine anyone would want to do my job for nothing. It's supply and demand in it's purest form. Why would Burger King employ people for £10 an hour when there are people that will do the same job for minimum wage?

If they could pay less they probably would since there are people out there desperate for work, but then there are laws against that of course. Nothing of the sort concerning photography and without meaning to sound blunt, why should there be?

It depends on your job of course. Some people have fun jobs that can be seen as hobbies to others. You are correct that it is related to supply and demand, but that doesn't mean that it is fair to the people who have made a living with their art for years. The same evolution happens in many industries though, with technology making many things more accessible to the masses, which in turn devalues somebody elses previous trade.

It's only normal for people who want to make a living from photography (or any other trade) to have grievances with those that directly devalue their work and to try to make them understand the impact of their giving away their work for free. The magazines, newspapers and marketing agencies are laughing all the way to the bank!

 

[leeds_182]

I think photography has become a lot more accessible in the last ten years. Ten years ago I didn't know anyone who was interested in photography, now I know at least 10 people with £500 plus set ups (that's not including people on this site).

There is obviously skill involved in taking photos but if you have the right gear it doesn't take that long to start churning out some good stuff.

Gone are the days of spending hours in the dark room!

 

[Chip-mk1]

In the many years I've been working as a freelance motoring journalist Ive worked with a large number of different professional photographers who have been contracted and paid.
But likewise I have also seen the mags using pictures from "talented ameteurs" / "aspiring professionals" that havent had to be paid for their work but are over the moon to see their name in print etc.

I think the band one is a good analogy, if you own a local pub then you are quite likely to find a band who will play for free or for just expenses in order to get practice and exposure or just for pleasure, but just dont expect it to an already estabilished band who are well known and making a good living.

 

[Brazo]

I'm probably the worst for this.

Even at New Years Eve (whilst slightly tipsy) I offered a mate a photoshoot of their 15 month child in our studio at work....for free!

I still think it's because I'm not confident in myself enough to charge people for my photos. Either that or I'm just such a nice guy!

Its probably because you are a nice person, a good mate AND will enjoy doing it!

I agree nobody should work for free but there are literally thousands of brilliant amateur togs out there who wouldn't consider it 'work'. Go figure!

You find the pro-am thing in many walks of life, even the police and army and I suspect the arguments will rage on

 

[SamP]

Did what I've decided to be my last ever free job on NYE, worked 7 - 4 + another 5 hours in post for nothing. Was for Charity and mates though, only reason I did it was because they were stuck. Hated the night and didn't drink a drop until 4, got tired and went home with the Mrs' at 5.

People who say "it's great experience" or "you'll get credit" just boil my f**king piss. I wouldn't ask you to resurface my drive for free? End of the day there's 10 people out there that will work for free, and 99% of the club owners and promoters I work with can't tell the difference between quality work and 200 identical photos using on axis flash of a pair of skanks. Makes me so angry. Only way to make it in the industry is promotion IMO, talent doesn't get you anywhere anymore.

 

[mugglesquop]

i do work on my mates cars for free

 

[Andy.]

Helping mates out is always good though. I've done quite a few studio shoots for friends/ family and get a kick out of the fact that they like the photos afterwards. A few have offered to pay, but I have always turned it down as it just feels awkward. It's always nice to get a bottle of wine or chocolates as a thank you though and a couple of times it has lead to paid assignments from their friends who have seen the photos.

 

[Laura]

i will continue to do selected jobs unpaid, there are certain times that working for free will benifit you financially in the future, for example my work was published in autosport mag in NZ, for free, but from this i have got other work that has made me money. Its quetened off not because i stepped back from alot of the drifting work i was doing but there was a point where i was getting approached by loads of different people asking me to shoot events n such. This year im going to have to step it up a little because as part of our sponsorship agreement i have to provide images.

 

[Derelict-UK]

When I take pictures for a certain promoter in Birmingham for raves (Big raves, usually 2000+ people) I have asked many times for payment as I have been taking pictures for them for several years.

I don't give them full res images, but images no bigger than 700 pixels wide with my website's watermark on.

(I would supply un-watermarked images at a high(er) res if I was paid.)

This is kind of a stalemate with them, I don't get paid, but do get free access all areas and am the only photographer on stage.

The promoter makes a MINT out of each event. All I have asked for is £50 to cover travel and sometimes 7 hours of work (+ editing).

He has told me that there are plenty of photographers out there that will work for free. He just wants images and he doesn't care about quality.

It's annoying I like the 'job', I have a good time & have photographed probably 99% of my favourite DJ's because of it, but as other people say, I don't like working for free, but if another person takes my place I would kick myself for leaving.

If however they want a full res image, then they can pay the going rate lol.

 

[SamP]

Give business cards out to the artists/DJ's and you'll soon pick up some real work? Might be unprofessional, but f**k em. You're not getting paid so do whatever you want?

 

[Derelict-UK]

I do, I give out about 50-80 a night (www.club-pics.co.uk )

I have got money by selling promotional shots of lesser known DJ's at their first big event and have also done a few photo shoots for local DJ's and a dance group because they knew me from always being there.

 

[ukaskew]

I'm in two minds about this. I've personally found that when I introduce money into the mix that my interest/passion quickly deteriorates. At the same time, if somebody would really like my photos (be it a racing driver, charity, blog etc) I'm not going to keep them to myself just because I don't want to charge for them.

I intentionally concentrated on seeing how it would go as a 'job' (although around my full-time job as well) for a year and it almost killed my interest in photography completely. I made an awful lot of money and ended up in discussions with sports car manufacturers etc, but sorting the business side of it was soul destroying, and I did notice a subtle 'toning down' of my style to make them more commercially viable...that was the final straw, photography is my passion so my personal view is that I should only ever have to take photos I want to take, not ones I think would make a few quid.

Ironically, my dream was to shoot motorsport trackside for years, but last year I didn't pursue an opportunity offered to me by a racing circuit to be one of their photographers. I do, however, still shoot from public positions and if any photos are good enough I allow them to use the occassional shot for their website / event programmes etc. The buzz from still being able to compete 'with the pros' and have requests for my work from places anyone can shoot far outweighs the financial gain selling photos from positions most people can't access. Maybe I'm odd in that respect, but I've gone one further now and my next goal is to get motorsport shots from Micro 4/3s equipment published, I love a challenge.

So when one of photos is selected for the front page of a heavily visited website or on the cover of a race meeting programme do I feel sorry for the working pros who I've 'taken money from'? Honestly, no. If they were poor photos purposely used for the sake of being free then I would appreciate the issue with that. But they are not going to publish average photos in such heavily viewed places (most are still from pro photographers) so when they use one I know it's because it was the best photo for the job.

I've found a nice balance now, most requests are ignored, but occasionally if somebody takes the time to email me with more than 'can I use your photo?' then I take the time to respond and usually request a copy of the publication for the folder my missus keeps of my published work.

 

[Chapppers11]

I do, I give out about 50-80 a night (www.club-pics.co.uk )

I have got money by selling promotional shots of lesser known DJ's at their first big event and have also done a few photo shoots for local DJ's and a dance group because they knew me from always being there.

Why doesn't your website work in Internet Explorer? Says that on the page, but surely that is limiting the amount of traffic you are getting?

 

[Derelict-UK]

Why doesn't your website work in Internet Explorer? Says that on the page, but surely that is limiting the amount of traffic you are getting?

Well it does and it doesn't, some people have had issues with galleries loading on IE but if they use another browser it's fine.

tbh IE is s**t anyway, a lot of viruses are aimed at that browser so many people use another browser.

All my images are loaded onto facebook anyway so the majority of people just view them on there.

 

[DanFreemanPhoto]

Saw this link on dpreview.com this morning.

Yet more people winging about the 'crazy' prices of photographers, shame they don't actually know what goes into a days wedding photography.

 

[Feirny]

Hang out and take some flippen pics. That's all it is TBH.

 

[Revels]

Wedding photography is expensive but some people are massively talented.

Some charge thousands and they suck!!

 

[Zmaster2k]

Agree with revels, ive done 3 weddings now, 1st one i was asked and had no idea what to charge, so said pay me what you think its worth....i got £50...voucher....

the last 2 i've charged more realistic prices, my images are good but by no means worth £1500-3000 a day.

Dans work on here is somthing im always astonished at, very talented guy.

i consider myself an amatuer photographer...yes i have some nice gear..but that alone doesn't make me a pro.

i had some images in PFC a few months back for the Clio16valver feature.. didn't even get any accreditation.

 

[DanFreemanPhoto]

Thanks for the comment Zmaster, much appreciated.

I would by no means consider myself a pro, I'm just a serious amateur.....and I always will be.

I'm not that bothered about making money from photography, as I know it'll just be the odd bit of cash here and there. Unless I really dedicated all my time and effort into photography, and getting my name out there, I'm happy to just do it for myself and keep enjoying it.

That's probably why I'm the worst at charging people! I'm still no where near confident in justifying the money I charge, which isnt a lot!

 

[Revels]

You're a lot better than a lot of the people who do it for a living and charge a lot of money.

I've done one for a friend after he persuaded me. I didn't hate it like I expected and the day went quite quickly but I'm such a worrier that once it was finished I was paranoid about what pictures I had, if they'd be sharp etc etc.

I know that while mine aren't as good as yours, they are better than some peoples. But that's not how I do things. I'd want to be brilliant, regardless of if I was charging £100 or £5k.

I probably should advertise and do some cheapo weddings for a bit of pocket money, but meh. I don't think £??? is worth me stressing for a few weeks before, all day and then for hours while I edit them.

 

[DanFreemanPhoto]

I'm shooting Dave's (bombers) wedding, and I think that will be my last. Unless it's to someone I know well too.

I'd love to be a second photographer for a really experienced person, you'd learn A LOT doing that.

 

[bully]

My mate is a pro photog and does weddings. Not sure how much he charges but I doubt its a months salary like in that ad.

He took redundancy at the same time as me, he was a serious amateur at the time (take note Dan!!) and now runs courses, does corporate work and weddings etc. He is turning over a profit now doing something he loves. There are plenty of companies over here too so he obviously stands out with his work.

He spends a good week processing wedding pics, we discussed it the other day, I was laughing saying how pissed off I get doing 100 of my own pics...let alone 1500-2k wedding pics!!

 

[Zmaster2k]

Very welcome dan, would love to spend a day with you shooting some stuff.. just for some tips tbh!

but back on topic, weddings are a mare... you tend to take lots of photos which makes post production fun, that and at the back of your mind is always, you can only do this once, if you mess this up your going to upset an entire family....the stress is unbelievable. especially if you have a confidance problem.

i will proberly never do another wedding.