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MOT 002 Rear brake load sensing valve seized [3 . 6 . E . 3]



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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
Sorry you must all get this question asked so much! I've done my research but just want to make sure i know for sure.
So the garage failed my 172 cup because of my rear brake load sensing valve seized [3 . 6 . E . 3]

So i took it to the garage next door and they had it up on the ramps and said there is a rod and spring missing, i need to either buy a rod and spring or buy the whole part. I have showed them the document in this link http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ository/MoT%20Issue%2031%20-%20Apr%202006.pdf is that the correct document on page 8? After showing them this they still say i need to get the rod and springs or a whole new part. Is there a different document i need to show them or is that it?
Thanks!!
 
McGherkin

McGherkin

Macca fan boiiiii
ClioSport Club Member
Yes, it's deliberately not connected up. No doubt they would've failed it on low effort on the rear brakes too - also deliberate. If it's connected up the car will lock the rear wheels under heavy braking.
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
McGherkin said:
Yes, it's deliberately not connected up. No doubt they would've failed it on low effort on the rear brakes too - also deliberate. If it's connected up the car will lock the rear wheels under heavy braking.
Click to expand...
So what part has he failed for it being seized? It failed on low effort last year when my dad was the owner but the garage tie wrapped it to help it pass?
 
McGherkin

McGherkin

Macca fan boiiiii
ClioSport Club Member
I'm not even sure it should have an arm to tie back in the first place - see the vosa link.
I'm guessing it's had an actuating arm fitted (probably when the garage tie-wrapped it, which they shouldn't have done either), and it's seized, but it doesn't matter whether it's seized or not so long as it's not sending braking effort to the rear.
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
McGherkin said:
I'm not even sure it should have an arm to tie back in the first place - see the vosa link.
I'm guessing it's had an actuating arm fitted (probably when the garage tie-wrapped it, which they shouldn't have done either), and it's seized, but it doesn't matter whether it's seized or not so long as it's not sending braking effort to the rear.
Click to expand...
When my dad had It they said he needed a new part but ended up fiddling with it and tie wrapping it, they never mentioned anything about fitting an arm. If they shouldn't of tie wrapped it then how else could they of sorted it? Or was there never anything to sort? I am looking at the correct document, page 8 of that link I posted?
 
McGherkin

McGherkin

Macca fan boiiiii
ClioSport Club Member
Never anything to sort.

My money is on your dad's garage getting low effort from the back brakes, so they put it up on a ramp to find the rear brake bias adjuster disconnected and missing the arm. They bought in an arm and fitted it, then cabletied it so that the back brakes started making a significant effort.
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
McGherkin said:
Never anything to sort.

My money is on your dad's garage getting low effort from the back brakes, so they put it up on a ramp to find the rear brake bias adjuster disco
Click to expand...
So last year when it was recording low effort it should of just been left alone and passed it's MOT anyway?
 
bashracing

bashracing

ClioSport Club Member
Just spoken the Vosa examiner for LS9, these jokers are known for this type of thing, Like I said ask them for a VT17, print off that page from Matters of Testing and tell ainleys this is why you're appealing, if no joy get back to me and I'll sort it out
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
bashracing said:
Just spoken the Vosa examiner for LS9, these jokers are known for this type of thing, Like I said ask them for a VT17, print off that page from Matters of Testing and tell ainleys this is why you're appealing, if no joy get back to me and I'll sort it out
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot! I will go see them Monday and see what happens! What do I do with the V17 fill it in and send it off??
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
McGherkin said:
Never anything to sort.

My money is on your dad's garage getting low effort from the back brakes, so they put it up on a ramp to find the rear brake bias adjuster disconnected and missing the arm. They bought in an arm and fitted it, then cabletied it so that the back brakes started making a significant effort.
Click to expand...
Haha no idea how I managed to shorten what you said in that quote! How come Renault made the car this way? Why doesn't it need the part when the other models do? (I assume other models do)
 
bashracing

bashracing

ClioSport Club Member
if they say they don't have any vt17s (shouldn't but have heard it before) you can print one off the Vosa webpage, you fill it in and send it off with the evidence form 'matters of testing' mag and a test fee which you will get refunded after the test and a couple of vosa examiners (both top blokes) will come and check it over at ainleys for you normally within that week, then give them a monumental b@llocking and you your pass cert,
I would have someone have a look over the car before it goes for the inspection just to make sure nothing else is faulty
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
bashracing said:
if they say they don't have any vt17s (shouldn't but have heard it before) you can print one off the Vosa webpage, you fill it in and send it off with the evidence form 'matters of testing' mag and a test fee which you will get refunded after the test and a couple of vosa examiners (both top blokes) will come and check it over at ainleys for you normally within that week, then give them a monumental b@llocking and you your pass cert,
I would have someone have a look over the car before it goes for the inspection just to make sure nothing else is faulty
Click to expand...
As far as I know nothing else is wrong with the car or surely they would have picked up on this? It also failed on a near side track rod end ball joint but that was sorted by the garage next to ainleys today. How should I approach them? Shall I not mention someone on the cliosport forum suggested this was the route of action??
 
bashracing

bashracing

ClioSport Club Member
Don't mention cliosport,for a quick result they will hopefully give their head a shake realise they're in the wrong and give you a pass cert when you tell them you will be going for an appeal,
but if they continue to be Aholes go down down the route of doing the appeal, if you need any help, just pm me and I'll help you through it, I can even hand the paperwork directly to the examiner that will be inspecting your car if you like.
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
bashracing said:
Don't mention cliosport,for a quick result they will hopefully give their head a shake realise they're in the wrong and give you a pass cert when you tell them you will be going for an appeal,
but if they continue to be Aholes go down down the route of doing the appeal, if you need any help, just pm me and I'll help you through it, I can even hand the paperwork directly to the examiner that will be inspecting your car if you like.
Click to expand...
I just want to make sure that the bit that they failed on my car is definitely supposed to pass as I don't want to go through all that to then find out that there is something wrong with it! Can I upload some pictures tomorrow? Could I get ainleys to ring renault or the dvla who will already know about it?
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
I will put pics on tomorrow. I don't get why the car doesn't need it? What is it actually there for? Sorry for all the questions!!
 
McGherkin

McGherkin

Macca fan boiiiii
ClioSport Club Member
On a standard car it controls the amount of braking effort that goes to the back wheels, so they don't lock. As weight shifts forward, the back end lifts up, moving the rear suspension beam and through a linkage the bias conpensator. The less weight over the back end, the less braking effort is required. If you have a weight in the back, it increases the braking effort (the back of the car is lower and the valve detects and compensates for this)

However, the cup differs in several ways;
1. It doesn't have ABS. The back wheels can lock, and if they do, it spins the car out.
2. It's lower than a standard clio - due to the way the bias valve works, this means that it thinks you're driving around with a boot full of bricks, and increase braking effort accordingly. The back end won't pick up as high as a normal clio's would either, again because of the sport suspension.
3. It can brake harder than a normal clio - with the sport brakes and typically wider and grippier tyres, it can brake harder and transfer more weight away from the back wheels, making them easier to lock. The compensator doesn't account for this weight shift properly either, because of reason 2.

This all adds up to mean that if the compensator is connected, it is easier to lock the back wheels up under heavy braking than it would be in a normal clio. Renault realised this, and so essentially locked off the rear brakes to stop this happening.

Other models are fitted with ABS which also stops this happening.
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
McGherkin said:
On a standard car it controls the amount of braking effort that goes to the back wheels, so they don't lock. As weight shifts forward, the back end lifts up, moving the rear suspension beam and through a linkage the bias conpensator. The less weight over the back end, the less braking effort is required. If you have a weight in the back, it increases the braking effort (the back of the car is lower and the valve detects and compensates for this)

However, the cup differs in several ways;
1. It doesn't have ABS. The back wheels can lock, and if they do, it spins the car out.
2. It's lower than a standard clio - due to the way the bias valve works, this means that it thinks you're driving around with a boot full of bricks, and increase braking effort accordingly. The back end won't pick up as high as a normal clio's would either, again because of the sport suspension.
3. It can brake harder than a normal clio - with the sport brakes and typically wider and grippier tyres, it can brake harder and transfer more weight away from the back wheels, making them easier to lock. The compensator doesn't account for this weight shift properly either, because of reason 2.

This all adds up to mean that if the compensator is connected, it is easier to lock the back wheels up under heavy braking than it would be in a normal clio. Renault realised this, and so essentially locked off the rear brakes to stop this happening.

Other models are fitted with ABS which also stops this happening.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that, I understand all of that I think!
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
bashracing said:
post some pics up but if its a cup you don't need the compensator connected anyway,
here's the old thread about your problem in case you haven't seen it
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/clio-cup-172-failed-mot-due-to-rear-brakes.536219/
Click to expand...
3.jpg
5.jpg
6.jpg
11.jpg
12.jpg
 
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ChrisPatto20

  Renault Clio 172 Cup
So this is the part in the pics? Does that look how it is supposed to look? I know its a bit rusty. You can see the metal tie wrap that the garage put on last year when my Dad got it MOT'd. The garage I took it to this year in Leeds are saying that its seized? What has seized exactly? The only part that moves is the arm that has been tied up, It does still move a little if I give it a wiggle, it will only move further up rather than down as it is already held up with the tie wrap. The garage who are doing the repairs are saying I need a rod and spring, and are saying they go in between the part and that hole coming off the beam at the bottom of picture 4 above.

So basically knowing what I now know from you guys and reading other threads, the car left the factory like this (in the photos above, if they look normal to you?) The car doesn't need the rods and spring and the valve inside the part is already pre set to low rear effort. Mine has been tied up as it failed last year on low rear effort, tying it up pulls the arm up high against the car and it cant move so you get maximum rear effort. So I can go back to them on Monday and tell them this, show them the VOSA print out AGAIN and if they still wont pass it do as bashracing said and ask for a VT17.
 
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