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NAS/RAID security. Full r****d.



M

Munson

Hi. next week I shall be setting up my new NAS. It's a Synology DS411J. I'll be pushin' 4x 2TB drives in RAID 5, for 6TB total capacity. So this allows one complete disc failure with no loss of data, right?

Can each disc be replaced with anything, so long as it's the same capacity? In other words I don't have to hunt for the exact same type of drive if one fails in 2 years? I presume the answer to this is yes.

What if the NAS itself fails? Can the discs in the array be put into another NAS with minimal configuration and no loss of data?

Cheers.
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

ClioSport Club Member
Pretty much yeah, nowadays NAS units aren't really fussy about having exactly the same model discs majority of the time, although usually best to make sure it's at least one from the support list for the manufacturer, but not essential.

http://www.synology.com/support/hd.php

And correct 1 drive failure and you're ok, 2 and you're not :p

As for if the NAS fails, I've got a Netgear so could well differ but I know I can't just whack the discs into anything else, has to be another Netgear device using the same CPU architecture (some use SPARC, some Intel, and more recently ARM).

They do also offer a service whereby you can send them your discs and they can pull the data off for you (not that I'd want them doing that...).

But you can't just stick them into a PC and read them, not with how the Netgears are formatted anyway.

Pretty sure that you can do something with a Linux build that lets you read them though, but tbh not really looked into it much.
 
M

Munson

Cheers. I figured the answer to the second question might be less simple, as I realise the data is spread across the array and can't just be read by Windows and the files pulled-off.

I guess the chances of the NAS having an irreparable failure are pretty slim anyway. Worst case scenario - it is at least possible to have the array rebuilt, even professionally? I do of course realise that only one disc can fail, but the chances of two failing together are extremely slim. Right?
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

ClioSport Club Member
Not as slim as you'd think, but to be honest in a home environment you'd have to be bloody unlucky.

Ironically buying discs at the same time/same batch probably increases the chances of more than one going at the same time if you get what I mean due to how things generally fail ;)

We had this happen at work with a little SAN that we were using for something at a remote office. One disk went in the morning, no problem call up support to get a new one shipped out and before the spare could be introduced another disk went and everything broke :p

But I'd say the chances of the enclosure itself going pop are very slim, and as long as discs are not damaged data can always be pulled off, just depends on by who and how deep you pockets are :)

But as a home user I'd say that you should be fine, I've just got a little 2 bay device with the disks mirrored which has done us nicely for years now.
 
M

Munson

OK thanks a lot for the help and advice. I've never had any redundancy before, so I guess this is a massive leap forward. I have lost data due to mechanical failure, and it's not nice, so I suppose with this setup I have the option to replace the failed disc (quickly) with no data loss. I guess I'd have to have a data centre in order to be 100% safe. I mean, who's to say my NAS won't be stolen if I'm burgled?!

Thread answered, really :)

FYI my business data is always 100% copied onto at least two drives at any one time anyway, and I also back it up to Dumptuck for cloud security. This will continue to be the case AND it will be on the NAS.
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

ClioSport Club Member
No worries, I've always more bothered about redundancy rather than backups and this does the job nicely. But now with actually having more and more stuff like photos that I would really be pee'd off with losing I do need to start thinking about how to manage that side of things now.

And yeah an off site 'cloud' (how I hate that word now it's the in thing..) store goes some way to helping things as you're paying someone else to worry about a lot of things and look after a lot of the risks, but then there's the risks of your stuff being held by someone else.

But that's a whole other discussion ;)
 
M

Munson

Yeah Cloud is a buzz word but I like it. I use Goldenfrog's Dumptruck to store mission critical data away from my home.
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

ClioSport Club Member
I need to have a look into where's decent so will look Dumptruck up. Working in information security you get a bit paranoid with things like that :p
 
D

dk

  911 GTS Cab
All good advice from Chris, the only thing I would add is to not expect 6tb usable data space....

The 2tb drives I use in a netapp format to about 1.6tb...

Its less noticeable with smaller drives but when you get big ones it's significant!
 
M

Munson

Oh yeah well that's to be expected. 1024 vs. 1000. That applies to all storage though? Or is there an additional loss through RAID?

RE: Dumptruck. I get it free as part of my usenet package. I think it's up to 30GB. More than enough as "just somewhere else" to keep my business data safe.
 
M

Munson

Also, do any of you IT boys have an opinion of the NAS that I chose? Google says it's good for my needs, but I'd like some feedback from you homos :)
 
D

dk

  911 GTS Cab
Roy Munson said:
Oh yeah well that's to be expected. 1024 vs. 1000. That applies to all storage though? Or is there an additional loss through RAID?

RE: Dumptruck. I get it free as part of my usenet package. I think it's up to 30GB. More than enough as "just somewhere else" to keep my business data safe.
Click to expand...

Indeed it does, but when you're dealing with laptop 128gb ssd etc you don't notice as much, but when you start using 2-4tb drives the loss is very noticeable etc. you shouldn't really lose any more over the raid, on a netapp San you lose another 10% to the software it runs, so it does depend on the device.

Im not a big expert on home nas I'm afraid though, I only deal with business, and haven't come across Synology before but the products do look nice, I'm in the market for a decent resilient nas too for my photo collection, was looking at Iomega, but they don't get great reviews for the home stuff.
 
M

Munson

Ah ok cheers dk. All input appreciated. I basically just want a massive central tub in which to store my family photos, and be able to access them from the internet. Lol.

Mission critical business data will always be at least 300% secure. 400% with the new NAS :)
 
Gareth

Gareth

  Turbo'd MX-5 MK4
I've got the HP N40L also, got my £100 cashback this week. Upgraded to 8GB memory, switched the original HDD out for a 500GB disk for the OS (Win 2008 R2) and put a 2TB in, just ordered two more 2TBs to complete it. I've also got a Netgear NAS with 2 x 2TBs that turns itself on each night and mirrors the data from the server to itself then switches off.
 
M

Munson

As an aside, would the experts recommend allowing remote management of my router? Sometimes they need restarting, and I can't really do that from another country without enabling internet management. Strikes me as slightly vulnerable though?
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

ClioSport Club Member
One of those things, depends how much of a risk you want to take and why you need it.

If it needs restarting due to a crash etc then not as if remote management will help ;)

Better off setting up some sort of VPN endpoint on your network (can the Synology run as a VPN endpoint?), VPN into that and manage it from the inside as it was.
 
M

Munson

I have no idea what a VPN endpoint is. I do use a VPN but I'm guessing it's not the same thing?

I was under the impression that you can remote restart most routers?

I can get someone to pop over and power cycle it anyway if needs be, so I probably won't bother with remote access.
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

ClioSport Club Member
Oh yeah you can remote restart them from an admin console, my point was if it's already crashed and thus the connection is down how are you going to connect to it from the outside :)

Sorry, a VPN endpoint is the term I use to say it's the thing you connect to when establishing a VPN. So at the moment you pay for a service I assume, you spin up a VPN on your machine and connect to something at the other end, that'd be the endpoint.

So what you can do is host one yourself, so you connect in to your own network. Some NAS devices have software that allow you to terminate a VPN connection, or you can get routers that have this functionality already which is very handy.
 
T

The Fatty

  AB182, Audi A5 3.0
Depending on the RAID controller in the NAS box, RAID5 might not be your best option due to the parity calculations. Instead, you might be better off using RAID10 (RAID 1+0), which will still allow for 1 complete drive fail, but requires less work from the RAID controller. It is also a LOT faster at recovery as you dont need to wait for the RAID array to rebuild like RAID5. Remember RAID is not a backup, if you want the data to be secure from curruption etc, then you will need to impliment a backup solution as well :)
 
M

Munson

ChrisR said:
Oh yeah you can remote restart them from an admin console, my point was if it's already crashed and thus the connection is down how are you going to connect to it from the outside :)

Sorry, a VPN endpoint is the term I use to say it's the thing you connect to when establishing a VPN. So at the moment you pay for a service I assume, you spin up a VPN on your machine and connect to something at the other end, that'd be the endpoint.

So what you can do is host one yourself, so you connect in to your own network. Some NAS devices have software that allow you to terminate a VPN connection, or you can get routers that have this functionality already which is very handy.
Click to expand...

Oh ok cheers mate. I didn't mean the router crashes. It's just that sometimes I need to restart it for the DCHP server to dish out IP addresses to some of my devices. Perhaps this will never be a problem in the context of a NAS?

Fatty, so a RAID 5 system isn't secure from drive failure? Remember that only media data will rely on this. Business data will be on several other solutions AND the NAS.
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

ClioSport Club Member
Without knowing how the DHCP affects you I couldn't say, but that's another discussion (you could use static DHCP though to help manage IP leases etc). But yeah if you're not wanting to restart because of connection issue ignore me :p

RAID5 can cope with a single drive failure, what The Fatty is saying is that another RAID type might have performance advantages over RAID 5 when it comes to operation and also if you have the need to rebuild the array due to drive failure.

However depends on what the NAS supports you might not get much of a choice of what RAID type to use, and in all honesty for a home user it's not going to make much difference. Looks like the Synology 4 bay units do support 1+0/10, however you like to note it.

At home RAID is generally used in a 'what if' scenario, it's very rare in my experience that drives actually fail regularly. In an enterprise though, well they can chew through drives at a rate of knots lol.

And Roy is very aware that it's not a replacement for backups from what he's said in the thread :)
 
M

Munson

Yeah I understand general security of data. I don't entrust critical stuff to one solution, and I still won't

I just wanted to know that the data I do put on my NAS is as secure as it can be from disc failures.
 
M

Munson

That's an interesting thought. It's not uncommon to have power cuts round here. Although I presume the NAS will safely recover from such an event?
 
Silent_Scone

Silent_Scone

  Evo 5 RS
Might as well for the price of a UPS these days. NAS boxes are a bit of a muchness really, they all do the same job and I've never had a particular problem with any. We've got an old Acer Easystore at work which has been going for years.
 
D

dk

  911 GTS Cab
Flol @ a ups for a home hard drive, serious g33k alert there.

Cost of running it plus replacing the batteries (well the unit for those small ones) every 2 years.
 
M

Munson

So it's kinda setup. Formatted in RAID at 5.4TB capacity. I can access the management through my browser, but I don't seem to be able to view it in Finder.

DiskStation is showing up under the Shared section of the left Finder pane, but when I click it, I just get connection failed.

Am I going full-r****d?
 
Homer-Simpson

Homer-Simpson

Have you setup any shares on it yet? On my DS1511+ I had to go to Control Panel -> Shared Folder

Have you also setup the various services/options you want enabled under Win/Mac/NFS?
 
M

Munson

Yeah cheers but I had already done that. I missed "connect as" in Finder :eek:

All working okay now, but it's looking like setting up all the port forwarding and stuff for Internet access is going to be huge ball ache.
 
Homer-Simpson

Homer-Simpson

Roy Munson said:
Yeah cheers but I had already done that. I missed "connect as" in Finder :eek:

All working okay now, but it's looking like setting up all the port forwarding and stuff for Internet access is going to be huge ball ache.
Click to expand...

What are you trying to do with it? Are you going to be using it to host websites? Or do you just want access to it from anywhere in the world?
 
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