Tyre and brake pad issues. Are they related?

[scullyg40]

When I wanted to refresh my brake fluid, I noticed my tyre have excessive wear on the outsides, and they are colored blue.

What does this mean? And how do I solve it?
Do I need to change my tracking? Currently it's like this.

The top one is camber, then caster, then toe.
Hot tyre pressure after each session is checked, and is regulated at 30 psi.

I've noticed that a lot of heat is created with the tyres/brakes after each session. I also feel, that I lack grip coming out of the slower corners. I've always put this down to the low weight of the car, but hopefully someone here can shed a light on the tracking if that might be the case.
I'm thinking I need more camber, but that will also effect my braking. Will more caster be advisable to give more camber just in the corners?

Another issue I discovered is this.

My left brake pad has crumbled. They are Carbon Lorraine RC5+ and I did my first trackday with them in march 2018. Since then I did about 8 to 10 trackdays I think, with an average of 4 to 5, 20 to 30 minute sessions. Is this normal that they gave up after this amount of track time?
Might it also be heat related that they have crumbled? Should I upgrade to RC6 or higher, or a different brand of brake pads?

 

[robzracing]

The blue on the tire is just oils coming out of them which happens after they’ve been standing for a while after a track day or race.
The wear could be down to wrong pressures but could also be your toe.
I run slight toe out on my race car.
Your camber should be ok like that.
Too much camber and you’ll have even less traction out of the corners.
I take it you don’t have a diff?


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[robzracing]

On closer inspection I wouldn’t say that wear is too excessive, but keep an eye on pressures. Do you have a tire thermometer? Also useful to know that you have even temperature across the face of the tire


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[JB21]

Everything seems fine, CL5 are renown for crumbling my advice would be DS1.11. Its the tyre itself which will be the issue. RSR's are budget track tyres, so give budget grip similar to NS2R 180 etc. Upgrade to a mid-range or premium track tyre and the difference will be night and day.

 

[JamesBryan]

Wear looks fine.

 

[robzracing]

Yes I forgot to mention CL RC5s, 6s et al are prone to crumbling which is apparently caused by moisture. So if you’ve had a wet track day or your car has sat outside this is a common problem.


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[scullyg40]

On closer inspection I wouldn’t say that wear is too excessive, but keep an eye on pressures. Do you have a tire thermometer? Also useful to know that you have even temperature across the face of the tire


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Wear looks fine.

I guess I could borrow one at work. So the blue lines is nothing to worry about? And wear like this is normal? You can clearly see in the first picture that the thread in the blue area is almost gone.

Everything seems fine, CL5 are renown for crumbling my advice would be DS1.11. Its the tyre itself which will be the issue. RSR's are budget track tyres, so give budget grip similar to NS2R 180 etc. Upgrade to a mid-range or premium track tyre and the difference will be night and day.

So basically I've reached the limit of the tyre? My plan always was to work my way up with the tyres, I started on normal street tyres, now these Federals, and after Toyo's or something?

 

[JamesBryan]

It's rolling the sidewall over a bit. Probably try 32/33psi instead.

 

[chris blue]

You think they are unevenly worn, look at these after a day at Lydden!

was running 27psi hot.

 

[JB21]

I guess I could borrow one at work. So the blue lines is nothing to worry about? And wear like this is normal? You can clearly see in the first picture that the thread in the blue area is almost gone.



So basically I've reached the limit of the tyre? My plan always was to work my way up with the tyres, I started on normal street tyres, now these Federals, and after Toyo's or something?

Exactly mate. Look at at something like the AR1, R888, ZZR, A032, V70a, Dirreza etc. Not AD08R, NS2R 180 etc

 

[NTG999]

10 trackdays with 4 to 5 20 min sessions, if your trying will give that wear, thats some hard miles, same with the pads. As mentioned tyre thermometer definitely useful, I would be aiming for a lower working temp and evenness across the tread, they are road tyres you are abusing

 

[JB21]

You think they are unevenly worn, look at these after a day at Lydden!

was running 27psi hot.



View attachment 1434097

Pressures to low and no offense you drive erratic 🤣

 

[chris blue]

Pressures to low and no offense you drive erratic 🤣

As it happens, around half dozen had the same issue, some with brand new tyres on front nearside. Mine weren't new. Pressure was recommended by site Pro. I was recommended to go to 24psi!

And no one took exception to my driving, and had a good few chats with the site Pro...…….

Camber bolts have been suggested, as wheels are straight

 

[JB21]

As it happens, around half dozen had the same issue, some with brand new tyres on front nearside. Mine weren't new. Pressure was recommended by site Pro. I was recommended to go to 24psi!

And no one took exception to my driving, and had a good few chats with the site Pro...…….

Camber bolts have been suggested, as wheels are straight

Good few chats with the site pro yeah, same pro who told you to run 24psi hot? I took exception to your driving at Blyton hence my erratic comment.

 

[RSRowe]

Are you sure he didn't mean 24psi cold?

 

[scullyg40]

It's rolling the sidewall over a bit. Probably try 32/33psi instead.

That's what I plan on doing next trackday. Maby add a little more camber at the next time of needs alignment. I have the Cup wishbones in my garage waiting to add more caster.

Exactly mate. Look at at something like the AR1, R888, ZZR, A032, V70a, Dirreza etc. Not AD08R, NS2R 180 etc

I will look into these when my current tyres are worn out. Getting curious now, as you're saying the're night and day.

10 trackdays with 4 to 5 20 min sessions, if your trying will give that wear, thats some hard miles, same with the pads. As mentioned tyre thermometer definitely useful, I would be aiming for a lower working temp and evenness across the tread, they are road tyres you are abusing

It gets abused yes, but that's what it's for. If I don't forget, I will certainly bring the thermometer next time.

 

[Kev@KAM]

The pads are sintered metal so quite possibly stuck to the disc when in storage. I cant see any evidence in that image they rusted internally but a years worth of use is pretty good considering the caliper.
If you want to discuss CL and other options I can help. I deal with a lot of Renault track cars so always getting feedback on whats working and whats not.

Renault Clio Mk2 Renaultsport Brakes Parts

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www.kamracing.co.uk

 

[scullyg40]

I've already been in contact with you. It was me asking about the lead time for the Ferodo DS1.11 pads. Just waiting for a friends reply to see if we combine an order.
But what do you mean with 'pretty good considering the caliper'?

 

[bozothenutter]

Toe out....you need toe out....

 

[scullyg40]

Toe out....you need toe out....

I've got toe out, it's just not that much, 4 mins. But will another 4 mins or something like that make such a difference?

 

[bozothenutter]

I've got toe out, it's just not that much, 4 mins. But will another 4 mins or something like that make such a difference?

182's run 12mins total...
but yeah, for track it wil really improve turn in.

 

[chris blue]

Are you sure he didn't mean 24psi cold?

No, he did say hot, and I must admit the grip you get on a small tight circuit like Lydden is really good at 24psi hot.
Just wipes the tyres away quickly

Personally 30 hot is to high for me, as steering goes lighter on tight corners

 

[JamesBryan]

24psi would be ideal...

If you were in something weighing 700kg.

You've either misheard him or he's talking shite. On a road especially, they need pressure to keep their shape.

 

[RSRowe]

Personally for the sake of the extra grip you mention, I'd rather not have it if it meant my tyres lasted more than a day 😂

 

[scullyg40]

182's run 12mins total...
but yeah, for track it wil really improve turn in.

I understand it will improve turn in, but will it also reduce the wear on the outer edge of my tyres?
And 12 mins total doesn't seem that much more than my current 8 mins total. I can't really see it making that much difference?

 

[JB21]

I understand it will improve turn in, but will it also reduce the wear on the outer edge of my tyres?
And 12 mins total doesn't seem that much more than my current 8 mins total. I can't really see it making that much difference?

It won't make any difference. I ran my 182 at 40 mins total. Negative Toe also wont affect the outside, it will scrub the insides.

 

[1985michael182]

Yes, CL5+ need to be kept dry so if it's going to sit around outside exposed to the elements then have a cheap set of road pads to put in after track days.

Your camber looks fine 2.5 to 2.75 is what guys usually run.

Most run 10minutes tow out or more as when you accelerate in a fwd car you wheels naturally pull forwards reducing the toe out. Castor and toe out increase turn in.

Questions...
Are you running ridiculous wheel spacers? Any more than 10mm and you ruin your scrub radius.

What suspension are you running? If you are on standard struts and lowering spring you will get excessive body role which transfers the body weight onto the outside wheels which in turn ends up rolling the extra weight over onto the tyre walls scrubbing the edges off.

Also if you are taking these slower tighter corners too fast and breaking the tyres grip at the limits of their performance creating understeer then you will also scrub the edges off.

I think, better tyres, reduce chassis weight, invest in some decent suspension with the correct lbs spring fitted and you wont go far wrong

 

[scullyg40]

@1985michael182 Good posting.

The car is kept dry in a garage, and is only washed prior to a trackday, to keep the disc rusting to a minimum.

I haven't got any wheel spacers. I drive a 7x15 ET35 or 37 wheel. But I haven't got a clue what scrub radius is. Can you explain?

Suspension is BC Racing DS with 10/8 kg springs, so body roll is a lot less than original.

Also if you are taking these slower tighter corners too fast and breaking the tyres grip at the limits of their performance creating understeer then you will also scrub the edges off.

This sounds a lot like me driving, I use the throttle to steer out of the corners.

I think, better tyres, reduce chassis weight, invest in some decent suspension with the correct lbs spring fitted and you wont go far wrong

Tyres good be improved on, but I will first wear these out.
The car weighs 846 kg's at the moment, which is pretty lightweight for a Clio I suppose.
Suspensions wise I should be good as well, I'd like to upgrade the wishbones to Cup versions, and upgrade the rear axle. I'd also like a roll center correction, but that's a bit more future orientated I suppose.

 

[1985michael182]

Something which is very often over looked is also as you lower your car for lower centre of gravity this moves your role centre point out of the factory settings. If you have the cash once you have a decent suspension setup invest in a role centre and bump steer correction kit. Best on the market is @NorthloopCup kit. Car turns where you point it.

 

[1985michael182]

@1985michael182 Good posting.

The car is kept dry in a garage, and is only washed prior to a trackday, to keep the disc rusting to a minimum.

I haven't got any wheel spacers. I drive a 7x15 ET35 or 37 wheel. But I haven't got a clue what scrub radius is. Can you explain?

Suspension is BC Racing DS with 10/8 kg springs, so body roll is a lot less than original.



This sounds a lot like me driving, I use the throttle to steer out of the corners.



Tyres good be improved on, but I will first wear these out.
The car weighs 846 kg's at the moment, which is pretty lightweight for a Clio I suppose.
Suspensions wise I should be good as well, I'd like to upgrade the wishbones to Cup versions, and upgrade the rear axle. I'd also like a roll center correction, but that's a bit more future orientated I suppose.

Suspension isn't your problem then.

I would say over driving the tyres. Also 30psi in a 850kg car is probably too much
Closer to 28psi hot I would say. If it's purely a trackcar and you have a propper cage then go straight for slicks, dont even bother with road legal

 

[scullyg40]

Ok. How does lowering the pressure help reducing wear on the outside? Now I'm confused, especially when earlier in this thread it's been discussed to raise the preasure.
I do have a cage, but I still feel very novice about tyres, hence this thread. I'd like to go to slicks in the future, but my tyre knowledge is holding me back, as said before, I started with street tyres, and like to improve on tyres slowly.
Also, slicks are expensive.

 

[1985michael182]

If you buy a better tyre I dont think it will role so much on the walls.
I dont think the tyre pressures are 30psi on a road tyre are they with standard weight.

Basically your car as standard if its 172 it was 1100kg if it's a 182 I think they're 1200kg and a 172cup was 1020kg if I remember rightly. You've potentially lost over 200kg from you chassis but still running standard weight tyre pressures.

Less weight means less pressure being applied on the tyres, so if your using say 30psi on a vehicle weighing 850kg you are technically over inflating the tyres reducing your contact foot print with the tarmac.

Reducing the pressures slightly will increase your foot print giving more surface area for more grip which may solve your understeer.

I run slicks at 27/28 psi hot

 

[JamesBryan]

The higher pressure was mentioned because it's just a road tyre and that usually prevents the sidewall rolling over.

If you ran Dunlop Direzza's you'd comfortably be able to run them at mid to high 20's without the sidewall rolling.

 

[Kev@KAM]

I've already been in contact with you. It was me asking about the lead time for the Ferodo DS1.11 pads. Just waiting for a friends reply to see if we combine an order.
But what do you mean with 'pretty good considering the caliper'?

Its a small pad surface and the caliper is small so retains heat. Also as its a single pot so one pad side will wear faster.

 

[George@RTR_Parts]

I supply to lots of 172/182 track and front running race cars their brakes, and plenty now running DS1.11 after trying various others (and having issues with others) . They just work well, combined with the rear DS2500 , one of the best set ups you'll get running the OE size brakes .

On the shelf at Road Trace Race Parts and can have them tomorrow, with discs, fluid etc etc @scullyg40 get in touch I'll get you sorted

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[scullyg40]

The higher pressure was mentioned because it's just a road tyre and that usually prevents the sidewall rolling over.

If you ran Dunlop Direzza's you'd comfortably be able to run them at mid to high 20's without the sidewall rolling.

I think I'll try both settings at the next trackday if I can bring the thermometer, and I have dry conditions.

 

[JamesBryan]

I think I'll try both settings at the next trackday if I can bring the thermometer, and I have dry conditions.

Ideally need a tyre probe that you can stick in the tyre. Surface temps from IR guns won't really tell you much.

Probes aren't cheap though, i use the Longacre one.