Vehicle Tampering vote.

[dutchgunner]

I signed this petition. I thought Steve Baker had it Spot on. 25min onwards.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Seem to be using antisocial c***s with pops and bangs as a good reason to enforce anti tampering laws. Part of the antitampering laws are there to stop people from disabling black boxes (which will be used for tax per mile and later automated speeding fines).

The lingo from in favor of anti tampering laws seems to suggest that enforcing laws such as this are better than giving better funding to police which is an utterly ridiculous notion.

I wonder how traffic police forces feel about being slowly replaced by black boxes and cameras?

 

[McGherkin]

Doesn’t fill me with confidence. Oh yes, MSA passported cars and classic cars will be fine, but anyone modifying a modern car is a boy racer and no clarification on what exactly is going to be banned. Will still probably be ‘oh you can’t change any part of the exhaust or the engine mapping’ 🤡

As it stands the laws are broad enough that theoretically fitting grippier, higher rolling resistance tyres than were fitted as standard would be a modification that affects the emissions of the vehicle.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Feels like the German model of requiring all modifications to have approval (TUV?) might be a happier middle ground?

Cuts out the poppopbangbang crowd from fitting worse than OE parts in the interest of stance / sound, but still leaves the option for the more serious to make real improvements. Would necessarily push the prices up I suppose though....

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Although I don't want it, the Germans solved the issue years ago buy enforcing TUV compliance on aftermarket parts.

I don't personally have a problem with enforcing that catalysts and de-particulate filters be in place, or that offensively noisy exhausts be banned etc. But this may end up going further, coilovers, remaps, brakes, etcetc.

 

[JamesBryan]

This will end up like the USA with their EPA.

Basically trying to push a federal law to say that any car built for the road cannot be modified in anyway or even turned into a racecar for off-road use.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Boils my piss, its changes like this which will eventually result in the dumbing down of people.

Removing free will, putting limits around creativity and creative people rather than focusing on encouraging responsible behavior (through prosecution, improved training and education etc.) is bad for society.

Various papers and studies in recent years seem to suggest the enforced driver aids such as ABS have had a few smaller benefit to road safety than expected. In fact some even suggest the opposite where over time drivers have been deskilled. So what does 15 years of patrial self driving do?

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Ridiculous really. It could end up with a scenario where fitting 2k's worth of coilover is against the law, while it remains fine to fit cheap aftermarket parts that are "OE spec" when, in reality, they're s**t quality Chinese junk that will fail after a few months. Even the exhaust thing doesn't make sense. Some suggest we ban the fitment of aftermarket exhausts that make a car louder, but it's perfectly fine for someone to buy a Ferrari/Lamborghini that's louder from the factory than anything that's been modified.

As usual, it's laws being debated by people that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

 

[JamesBryan]

Boils my piss, its changes like this which will eventually result in the dumbing down of people.

Removing free will, putting limits around creativity and creative people rather than focusing on encouraging responsible behavior (through prosecution, improved training and education etc.) is bad for society.

And all the whole aftermarket industry will disappear overnight.

 

[Short Norman]

As usual, it's laws being debated by people that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Mr Baker said in his search "often the bills are passed through without members even reading them"

They'll be passed through (or not) depending how their parties donors will benefit from the new laws.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

DISCLAIMER: I drive a modified Fiesta ST, do the occassional track-day, and have enjoyed having a modified car for most of my life, but....

I can kind of see the point here.

For the majority of people, cars, and the roads we drive them on are purely a tool to get from A to B, commuting, ferrying the kids around etc. For that huge majority, the rest of us are seen as anything from an oddity (who actually enjoys driving? etc.), to a nuisance, or frankly criminals.

And to a certain extent, they're right. We take a public space that's shared between everyone, and use it for a purpose that the majority are at best indifferent to, and at worst massively disapproving of.

Allowing our tiny minority to modify our cars, moving away from the heavily regulated manufacturer specifications and emissions standards, simply so we can be quicker, louder and more scene, is pretty weird when you think about it.

I feel like I've been incredibly lucky for most my years to be able to essentially do what I want and drive how I want (within reason), but it's probably unreasonable of me to expect that to last forever, simply because I've always been able to do it.

I'd love for them to allow me to keep going with this, but I'd find it very difficult to make an argument as to why I should get this special treatment.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

And all the whole aftermarket industry will disappear overnight.

Hopefully that will bring a bit of a sense to the whole thing. It's a massive industry in the UK, so hopefully there will be some desire to protect it.

 

[R3k1355]

As usual is the complete dickheads that are ruining it for everyone.

s**t pops n bangs map, s**t loud exhaust and drive like a f**king c**t everywehre.

 

[Big Toe]

Mr Baker said in his search "often the bills are passed through without members even reading them"

They'll be passed through (or not) depending how their parties donors will benefit from the new laws.

So we need Mr Bilstein and Mr Speedline to get their hands in their pockets

 

[Short Norman]

but even a number of safety devices that cars already have are having a detrimental effect on the standard of driving by dumbing down the idiot behind the wheel.

People driving in fog and rain with just DRL's on because their auto lights have decided it's not dark enough for the headlights for example.

I was nearly wiped out the other day because someone didn't check their blind spot before starting to change lanes. As he came closer to me I could see the little light in his mirror telling his that there was a car in his blind spot but obviously he couldn't...prick.

The person behind the wheel need to be responsible. We will get to a point where if a car crashes the person behind the wheel just ends up suing the manufacturer

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

DISCLAIMER: I drive a modified Fiesta ST, do the occassional track-day, and have enjoyed having a modified car for most of my life, but....

I can kind of see the point here.

For the majority of people, cars, and the roads we drive them on are purely a tool to get from A to B, commuting, ferrying the kids around etc. For that huge majority, the rest of us are seen as anything from an oddity (who actually enjoys driving? etc.), to a nuisance, or frankly criminals.

And to a certain extent, they're right. We take a public space that's shared between everyone, and use it for a purpose that the majority are at best indifferent to, and at worst massively disapproving of.

Allowing our tiny minority to modify our cars, moving away from the heavily regulated manufacturer specifications and emissions standards, simply so we can be quicker, louder and more scene, is pretty weird when you think about it.

I feel like I've been incredibly lucky for most my years to be able to essentially do what I want and drive how I want (within reason), but it's probably unreasonable of me to expect that to last forever, simply because I've always been able to do it.

I'd love for them to allow me to keep going with this, but I'd find it very difficult to make an argument as to why I should get this special treatment.

But isn't that the purpose of legislation? Those who have stupidly loud exhausts, or drive like nobs, can be dealt with either by the police, or by MoT tests. We don't need blanket bans on modifying, or heavy-handed legislation that dramatically impacts individuals or businesses.

I think the argument for why you (and I) deserve special treatment is simple - freedom to do as we please so long as we are not harming others.

It just requires a bit of common sense which, as usual, is where it all falls down.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

DISCLAIMER: I drive a modified Fiesta ST, do the occassional track-day, and have enjoyed having a modified car for most of my life, but....

I can kind of see the point here.

For the majority of people, cars, and the roads we drive them on are purely a tool to get from A to B, commuting, ferrying the kids around etc. For that huge majority, the rest of us are seen as anything from an oddity (who actually enjoys driving? etc.), to a nuisance, or frankly criminals.

And to a certain extent, they're right. We take a public space that's shared between everyone, and use it for a purpose that the majority are at best indifferent to, and at worst massively disapproving of.

Allowing our tiny minority to modify our cars, moving away from the heavily regulated manufacturer specifications and emissions standards, simply so we can be quicker, louder and more scene, is pretty weird when you think about it.

I feel like I've been incredibly lucky for most my years to be able to essentially do what I want and drive how I want (within reason), but it's probably unreasonable of me to expect that to last forever, simply because I've always been able to do it.

I'd love for them to allow me to keep going with this, but I'd find it very difficult to make an argument as to why I should get this special treatment.

I'm not sure thats the full story through Rich.

Taking free will away from people is never a good long term solution to anything. I got into engineering mostly through cars - I suspect thats pretty common and engineers/designers and associated sales etc. helps our economy... so what is the economic effect of a limited society over the next 2-3 generations? I would bet its not negligible.

Laws shouldn't limit people, they should discourage immoral behavior. Lots of people get stabbed, should you ban the sale of all knives? or better punish the people who do bad things with knives?

 

[McGherkin]

DISCLAIMER: I drive a modified Fiesta ST, do the occassional track-day, and have enjoyed having a modified car for most of my life, but....

I can kind of see the point here.

For the majority of people, cars, and the roads we drive them on are purely a tool to get from A to B, commuting, ferrying the kids around etc. For that huge majority, the rest of us are seen as anything from an oddity (who actually enjoys driving? etc.), to a nuisance, or frankly criminals.

And to a certain extent, they're right. We take a public space that's shared between everyone, and use it for a purpose that the majority are at best indifferent to, and at worst massively disapproving of.

Allowing our tiny minority to modify our cars, moving away from the heavily regulated manufacturer specifications and emissions standards, simply so we can be quicker, louder and more scene, is pretty weird when you think about it.

I feel like I've been incredibly lucky for most my years to be able to essentially do what I want and drive how I want (within reason), but it's probably unreasonable of me to expect that to last forever, simply because I've always been able to do it.

I'd love for them to allow me to keep going with this, but I'd find it very difficult to make an argument as to why I should get this special treatment.

But that’s just lumping different sorts of people together and treating them as one. People who straight pipe 350Zs and skid them around roundabouts are not the same as someone who puts a modest but sportier sounding exhaust on their car and drives it according to the law. Yes, I agree, the former is frustrating to most and should be targeted, but it is already illegal. There are sound levels which police use to determine the difference between a sensible and stupid exhaust already.

The problem is that they are using a problem caused by people who are not genuine car enthusiasts, to target car enthusiasts, with a law that is so vague it may as well just ban anything that isn’t a spotty dice hanging from the mirror.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

The comments in the debate about "boy racers" (an infuriating term if ever there was one) seem entirely irrelevant to this issue in a way. That's a police matter. Driving standard are something should be managed by effective roads policing, whether a car is standard or not.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

The bit at the end about exhaust noise is also ridiculous. It's an enforcement issue, not a car modification issue.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

But isn't that the purpose of legislation? Those who have stupidly loud exhausts, or drive like nobs, can be dealt with either by the police, or by MoT tests. We don't need blanket bans on modifying, or heavy-handed legislation that dramatically impacts individuals or businesses.

I think the argument for why you (and I) deserve special treatment is simple - freedom to do as we please so long as we are not harming others.

It just requires a bit of common sense which, as usual, is where it all falls down.

I'm not sure thats the full story through Rich.

Taking free will away from people is never a good long term solution to anything. I got into engineering mostly through cars - I suspect thats pretty common and engineers/designers and associated sales etc. helps our economy... so what is the economic effect of a limited society over the next 2-3 generations? I would bet its not negligible.

Laws shouldn't limit people, they should discourage immoral behavior. Lots of people get stabbed, should you ban the sale of all knives? or better punish the people who do bad things with knives?

But that’s just lumping different sorts of people together and treating them as one. People who straight pipe 350Zs and skid them around roundabouts are not the same as someone who puts a modest but sportier sounding exhaust on their car and drives it according to the law. Yes, I agree, the former is frustrating to most and should be targeted, but it is already illegal. There are sound levels which police use to determine the difference between a sensible and stupid exhaust already.

The problem is that they are using a problem caused by people who are not genuine car enthusiasts, to target car enthusiasts, with a law that is so vague it may as well just ban anything that isn’t a spotty dice hanging from the mirror.

I don't think I've done a good job of getting my point across as I don't really disagree with any of you (for once).

I'm not suggesting there's a need to prohibit everything, I'm just saying that many of the current arrangements feel strangely permissive.

e.g. we set limits on exhaust emissions for manufacturers, but you can legally f**k all of them so long as you pass the MoT (which is much less stringent). Never mind the whole 'decat with the original cat fitted at the MoT' crew.

Maybe I'm not up to speed enough on current regulations but as an example when I see some scene Golf running stretched tyres and full dickhead camber, I'm assuming it's road legal as it's so obvious to passing plod what's been done to it. None of those modifications make it safer, and in fact presumably make it much less safe, and therefore less safe for other road users. I'd argue that the same applies to a lot of (badly done) modifications, that create an increased risk for other road users who are just trying to use the roads for their intended purpose. We can talk about freedoms, but as the saying goes, your 'freedoms stop where mine begin'.

Let's face it, the MoT is a low f**king bar. Having legislation that cuts out the worst and most irresponsible (but currently legal) modifications surely wouldn't be the worst thing?

 

[JamesBryan]

They're looking at changing the MOT to every two years now as well 😂

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

They're looking at changing the MOT to every two years now as well 😂

What do you mean my tyres are down to the canvas? It passed its MoT 23 months ago!

 

[JamesBryan]

What do you mean my tyres are down to the canvas? It passed its MoT 23 months ago!

To help the cost of living crisis apparently.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

To help the cost of living crisis apparently.

Living does become significantly cheaper when you aquaplane off the road on your 0.01mm tread ditchfinders into a tree at 60mph.

 

[JamesBryan]

Living does become significantly cheaper when you aquaplane off the road on your 0.01mm tread ditchfinders into a tree at 60mph.

It's probably the worse plan they've come up with for motoring since smart motorways.

 

[Short Norman]

It's probably the worse plan they've come up with for motoring since smart motorways.

what better than pedestrians having the right of way at junctions

 

[JamesBryan]

what better than pedestrians having the right of way at junctions

Fair point 😂

Cue the Monty Python Life of Brian scene, apart from the roads....

 

[_Tom]

This will end up like the USA with their EPA.

Basically trying to push a federal law to say that any car built for the road cannot be modified in anyway or even turned into a racecar for off-road use.

They do allow it but once a car has been cleared as a race car by EPA it can never be used on the road, ever.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I don't think I've done a good job of getting my point across as I don't really disagree with any of you (for once).

I'm not suggesting there's a need to prohibit everything, I'm just saying that many of the current arrangements feel strangely permissive.

e.g. we set limits on exhaust emissions for manufacturers, but you can legally f**k all of them so long as you pass the MoT (which is much less stringent). Never mind the whole 'decat with the original cat fitted at the MoT' crew.

Maybe I'm not up to speed enough on current regulations but as an example when I see some scene Golf running stretched tyres and full dickhead camber, I'm assuming it's road legal as it's so obvious to passing plod what's been done to it. None of those modifications make it safer, and in fact presumably make it much less safe, and therefore less safe for other road users. I'd argue that the same applies to a lot of (badly done) modifications, that create an increased risk for other road users who are just trying to use the roads for their intended purpose. We can talk about freedoms, but as the saying goes, your 'freedoms stop where mine begin'.

Let's face it, the MoT is a low f**king bar. Having legislation that cuts out the worst and most irresponsible (but currently legal) modifications surely wouldn't be the worst thing?

I think that's the point I was making though. The example of the Golf is one that should be dealt with by common sense. If it's got so much camber that only 1/4 of the tyre is on the road, or the exhaust is loud enough to set off car alarms, then the Police should be dishing out tickets, or an MoT centre should be failing it.

When it comes to "sensible" stuff, I'm not sure the same justification can be made. Even in terms of emissions equipment; we're talking about such a tiny percentage of the total number of cars on the road, that it's probably not even worth worrying about. That being said, I have no problem with stricter enforcement around retaining catalysts, particulate filters etc.

We are lucky in the UK that we do have a lot more freedom that many other countries, but the current MoT structure should still deal with most of the issues outlined in the debate above, or when it comes to silly camber etc. We don't need more legislation, we just need to enforce it properly; be it the MoT catching stupid modifications, or a police officer giving a ticket to a nob who is unleashing his pops and bangs in a housing estate at 2am.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

We don't need more legislation, we just need to enforce it properly; be it the MoT catching stupid modifications, or a police officer giving a ticket to a nob who is unleashing his pops and bangs in a housing estate at 2am.

I'd definitely agree with that. The amount of illegal front tints I see is shocking and given everyone round my way is 80 with cataracts, it's a miracle any of them are still alive.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I think what's more scary is the amount of cars driving around with really shitty quality parts on them. I bet there are hundreds of thousands of cars with shite, pattern catalytic converters that barely pass emissions tests (and are probably more polluting than a lot of modified cars), or with cheap, Chinese suspension and brake parts that are on the brink of failure at any moment. Or even just poorly maintained standard cars that are owned by people that have no idea there's anything wrong with them.

Years ago, I remember fitting some eBay lower front suspension arms to a car and one of the outer ball joint bolts snapped before it was even torqued, because it was made from cheesy Chinese steel. That sort of thing is probably a far bigger issue in reality, but it doesn't get picked up on, because it's not as obvious as a Golf R or Fiesta ST (sorry @cs_rich) with a pop and bang map.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Ridiculous really. It could end up with a scenario where fitting 2k's worth of coilover is against the law, while it remains fine to fit cheap aftermarket parts that are "OE spec" when, in reality, they're s**t quality Chinese junk that will fail after a few months. Even the exhaust thing doesn't make sense. Some suggest we ban the fitment of aftermarket exhausts that make a car louder, but it's perfectly fine for someone to buy a Ferrari/Lamborghini that's louder from the factory than anything that's been modified.

As usual, it's laws being debated by people that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

The point on fitting pattern parts is a good one. These decision-makers live in a bubble entirely of their own making and don't really think these things through.

 

[McGherkin]

I think that's the point I was making though. The example of the Golf is one that should be dealt with by common sense. If it's got so much camber that only 1/4 of the tyre is on the road, or the exhaust is loud enough to set off car alarms, then the Police should be dishing out tickets, or an MoT centre should be failing it.

When it comes to "sensible" stuff, I'm not sure the same justification can be made. Even in terms of emissions equipment; we're talking about such a tiny percentage of the total number of cars on the road, that it's probably not even worth worrying about. That being said, I have no problem with stricter enforcement around retaining catalysts, particulate filters etc.

We are lucky in the UK that we do have a lot more freedom that many other countries, but the current MoT structure should still deal with most of the issues outlined in the debate above, or when it comes to silly camber etc. We don't need more legislation, we just need to enforce it properly; be it the MoT catching stupid modifications, or a police officer giving a ticket to a nob who is unleashing his pops and bangs in a housing estate at 2am.

As much as it is a total clusterfuck in Northern Ireland at the moment, I think MOT testing should be done independently of garages, since obviously a lot will pass any old thing for the money.

I agree that having a cat should probably be a legal requirement (having gone without for many years) since it gets rid of unburnt hydrocarbons etc but I feel like what will be the result, whether intentionally or unintentionally, will be to have cars produce no more emissions than they do standard, which is impossible to achieve if you play with the engine, transmission, wheels or aerodynamics.

It's sledgehammer legislation and the people passing it clearly don't realise the implication of what they're passing.

 

[DaveDreads]

They try this non standard car crap every couple of years, then the motorsport and aftermarket car industry tell the government how much money they make for the economy each year and the proposals are quietly dropped.

 

[Krarl]

Imagine if manufacturers start making modded parts and mapping cars to get around it

Buy a Fiesta ST and Ford cotton onto the fact they can design and make a sports cat and a fancy exhaust and coin in "oh well since you have ticked the option for the heated leathers and decat pipe on your Fiesta we can apply a factory remap on with your order sir. Would you like some Ford branded Vudu stickers too?"

 

[DaveDreads]

Don't Ford in the US do that with the Mustang?
I'm sure there's a list of aftermarket parts you can spec when buying one.

 

[Mr Underhill]

Just ban the Welsh from driving. Job done!

 

[DaveDreads]

Just ban the Welsh

Corrected that for you mate, there's no need for them at all.

 

[Mr Squashie]

Shall. Not. Be. Infringed.

Oh sorry, wrong conversation.