1400 Tuning

[Dom172Cup]

Afternoon All, Who is the go to for tuning of the small capacity 16vs either UK or Europe based? Anyone in the uk done much?

I'm sticking to 1400 for class restrictions and for the short term sticking to breathing filter and an exhaust. However long term I'd like some cams and other parts any sources? Usual places I'd get 225 parts from come up short.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Might be a bit of a challenge, as most people will default to the 2.0-litre models for motorsport. Only competition use I'm aware of for the smaller capacity engines is the S1600 Clio, but not sure if any of that would be compatible with the 1400. Much of it might be a bit extreme for a more mildly tuned engine.

What are you going to be using the car for? I hate to say it but, if you specifically want a Clio, it might be better to move up to the 2.0-litre class if it's an option, as it will just make your life much easier. Alternatively, if you really want to stay in a 1400, there might be better options out there. There is a whole raft of tuning kit out there for the 1400 Vauxhall engines for example...

 

[Dom172Cup]

Might be a bit of a challenge, as most people will default to the 2.0-litre models for motorsport. Only competition use I'm aware of for the smaller capacity engines is the S1600 Clio, but not sure if any of that would be compatible with the 1400. Much of it might be a bit extreme for a more mildly tuned engine.

What are you going to be using the car for? I hate to say it but, if you specifically want a Clio, it might be better to move up to the 2.0-litre class if it's an option, as it will just make your life much easier. Alternatively, if you really want to stay in a 1400, there might be better options out there. There is a whole raft of tuning kit out there for the 1400 Vauxhall engines for example...

I don't particularly fancy the move up to 1600/2.0 classes. Single venue/tarmac.

I was originally going to do a puma but my heart wasn't in it. Events are for fun so I'd rather drive something I like, hence I've been sprinting my 225 and a while back drifting an r33.

There's obvious reasons for use of vauxhalls etc in 1400 but also some guys running through in near on stock engines. It's going to be my first season so we're never going to tear up the ranks. I wanted to run a Clio and they seem pretty competitive in Eastern Europe in tarmac and hillclimb but struggling for details on the cars.

 

[Twingo 1??]

Why was your heart not in the Puma? Just asking as I ran a puma for road rallys and stage for years. You may find that the 1400 is one of the most competitive classes as you need to spend to get results as you will be down 50-70bhp down.
You would probably be better in a MG zr in the 1400 class to start with.
But at the end of the day it's your choice and if you want to do something different in that class why not!

 

[Dom172Cup]

Why was your heart not in the Puma? Just asking as I ran a puma for road rallys and stage for years. You may find that the 1400 is one of the most competitive classes as you need to spend to get results as you will be down 50-70bhp down.
You would probably be better in a MG zr in the 1400 class to start with.
But at the end of the day it's your choice and if you want to do something different in that class why not!

Personal preference tbh mate. I drove the puma about for a bit but just couldn't get on with the "feel".
Id rather contract something than drive a rover k-series powered vehicle even if it came from Hethel.

Everyone says each class is the most competitive. Im very much appreciative that frequently $'s mean prizes.

I just want information if anyone has any on the small capacity engines?

 

[Twingo 1??]

Personal preference tbh mate. I drove the puma about for a bit but just couldn't get on with the "feel".
Id rather contract something than drive a rover k-series powered vehicle even if it came from Hethel.

Everyone says each class is the most competitive. Im very much appreciative that frequently $'s mean prizes.

I just want information if anyone has any on the small capacity engines?

LOL I wouldn't fancy one just know they do well in the 1400 class. Most people on the forum run 2.0 Clios not helpful engine wise but some of the build threads are a really good read regarding everything else.
I am building a Twingo 133 so not very useful at all ?

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I don't particularly fancy the move up to 1600/2.0 classes. Single venue/tarmac.

I was originally going to do a puma but my heart wasn't in it. Events are for fun so I'd rather drive something I like, hence I've been sprinting my 225 and a while back drifting an r33.

There's obvious reasons for use of vauxhalls etc in 1400 but also some guys running through in near on stock engines. It's going to be my first season so we're never going to tear up the ranks. I wanted to run a Clio and they seem pretty competitive in Eastern Europe in tarmac and hillclimb but struggling for details on the cars.

Understandable. I know where you're coming from, and I know what it's like to want to compete in a car you like, rather than just picking the obvious one. It's nice to see more shapes on the stages, rather than endless Escorts, Corsas and Micras, so I can't criticise you for wanting to try. Weirdly though, with the Clio, it is probably the best budget 2.0-litre car out there, so it's definitely worth considering. @Nathan Evans goes well in his, even with a fairly modest spec relative to the top cars in the class. Something to think about anyway.

If you're keen to stick to the 1400 though, I'm sure it's possible to get decent power from it, it might just cost you a bit more money. Is the 1.4 related to the 1.6 engine? If so, you might be able to rob some bits from one of those, in terms of exhausts/inlets, maybe even cams. Alternatively, you might be able to have some cams reground by one of the big cam companies (I think Piper do it), so that would be worth investigating. Get someone to look at the head to see if it can be improved, maybe see if you can get away with skimming it a touch to give you a bit more compression. I'm sure you could make throttle bodies work, you might just need a custom inlet manifold. Beyond that, it's going to be pistons and rods for high compression and all the big bills that come with it ?

Best thing will just be to get as much weight out of the car as possible. It always staggers me how many cars I see in service parks that are carrying needless weight. My Escort was terrible when I bought it; so many badly thought out changes that were adding pointless weight. A bit of thought when making brackets or mounting things can soon add up. The guy who built my car had gone to the expense of fitting expensive Group A top mounts, plastic windows, doing a wide track suspension conversion, but had then left most of the bitumen sound deadening in it At least you can still take advantage of all of the nice suspension/braking parts out there for the Clio too, regardless of which engine you use.

My only other advice would be to try and learn to speak some Eastern European languages ? They do seem to be much more willing than us to try different things, that's for sure.

 

[Dom172Cup]

Understandable. I know where you're coming from, and I know what it's like to want to compete in a car you like, rather than just picking the obvious one. It's nice to see more shapes on the stages, rather than endless Escorts, Corsas and Micras, so I can't criticise you for wanting to try. Weirdly though, with the Clio, it is probably the best budget 2.0-litre car out there, so it's definitely worth considering. @Nathan Evans goes well in his, even with a fairly modest spec relative to the top cars in the class. Something to think about anyway.

If you're keen to stick to the 1400 though, I'm sure it's possible to get decent power from it, it might just cost you a bit more money. Is the 1.4 related to the 1.6 engine? If so, you might be able to rob some bits from one of those, in terms of exhausts/inlets, maybe even cams. Alternatively, you might be able to have some cams reground by one of the big cam companies (I think Piper do it), so that would be worth investigating. Get someone to look at the head to see if it can be improved, maybe see if you can get away with skimming it a touch to give you a bit more compression. I'm sure you could make throttle bodies work, you might just need a custom inlet manifold. Beyond that, it's going to be pistons and rods for high compression and all the big bills that come with it ?

Best thing will just be to get as much weight out of the car as possible. It always staggers me how many cars I see in service parks that are carrying needless weight. My Escort was terrible when I bought it; so many badly thought out changes that were adding pointless weight. A bit of thought when making brackets or mounting things can soon add up. The guy who built my car had gone to the expense of fitting expensive Group A top mounts, plastic windows, doing a wide track suspension conversion, but had then left most of the bitumen sound deadening in it At least you can still take advantage of all of the nice suspension/braking parts out there for the Clio too, regardless of which engine you use.

My only other advice would be to try and learn to speak some Eastern European languages ? They do seem to be much more willing than us to try different things, that's for sure.

I have no particular reason why I just fancy the 1400 class. Maybe its the small capacity challenge of it all and the thought of engineering problems out.

From what I read many of the micras etc are 120-130bhp. I can't see how this won't be achievable.

The research I've done so far the heads are the same as 1600 but the cost of a scrap 1400 means I can amass heads to play with lol. I'll fire out some emails when I feel I can out drive the stock engine with exhaust and filter.

My plan is chassis and drivetrain but key for me is reliability to give seat time and finishes.

I'll post up a thread over the weekend of what I've got now.

I'm in rural Lincolnshire Eastern Europeans are everywhere I might have to try match someone of that decent on tinder haha Definitely a much more make good of what you have attitude.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Definitely get a thread up, love a good rally build!

 

[Twingo 1??]

Sounds like you have a plan. Definitely get the weight down as low as you can I will be at round 200kg out of the twingo once I have finished the doors boot and bonnet.
Get it handling and stopping is a good plan and it's the way I always go rather than engine work. My old puma had S1600 brakes and good suspension but running a standard engine and got fairly decent results on Mull with it.
If the heads are the same as the 1600 there is plenty of tuning options as there is plenty of big bhp 1600 Clios and Twingo.
If you built it to road rally spec you could do stages, road rallys and tagas.

 

[bloke]

120-130bhp would be pretty easy from the 1.4.

the head is quite restrictive, stays standard even on the 133/gt engine. we are just about to start on doing some work on the 1.6 but headwork will be the same. can you do anything on the head or has it got to be standard? will be doing a polyquad head, it isn't going to be cheap but gains can be pretty impressive though.

 

[Martin_172]

can you get away with being sneaky and fitting the 1600 bottom end, the K4J and K4M (1600) are pretty much the same engine.

there was a guy on here called oliver_K4M I believe, he done a bit of tuning on a 1600 K4M fitted to a mk1 clio, its all applicable to the 1400 too

 

[R3k1355]

Wasn't his a 1400 that he put the 1600 bottom end on?

IIRC he said that made the biggest difference.

 

[Dom172Cup]

can you get away with being sneaky and fitting the 1600 bottom end, the K4J and K4M (1600) are pretty much the same engine.

there was a guy on here called oliver_K4M I believe, he done a bit of tuning on a 1600 K4M fitted to a mk1 clio, its all applicable to the 1400 too

I can't fit a 1600 bottom end or this would put me in the 1600 class

 

[Dom172Cup]

Wasn't his a 1400 that he put the 1600 bottom end on?

IIRC he said that made the biggest difference.

no replacement for displacement

 

[Dom172Cup]

Sounds like you have a plan. Definitely get the weight down as low as you can I will be at round 200kg out of the twingo once I have finished the doors boot and bonnet.
Get it handling and stopping is a good plan and it's the way I always go rather than engine work. My old puma had S1600 brakes and good suspension but running a standard engine and got fairly decent results on Mull with it.
If the heads are the same as the 1600 there is plenty of tuning options as there is plenty of big bhp 1600 Clios and Twingo.
If you built it to road rally spec you could do stages, road rallys and tagas.

Thats pretty much my plan at the moment. Just trying to hunt down those small capacity tuned information nuggets

 

[Dom172Cup]

120-130bhp would be pretty easy from the 1.4.

the head is quite restrictive, stays standard even on the 133/gt engine. we are just about to start on doing some work on the 1.6 but headwork will be the same. can you do anything on the head or has it got to be standard? will be doing a polyquad head, it isn't going to be cheap but gains can be pretty impressive though.

This sounds interesting but I'd be lying if I said I knew what a poly quad head was ?

 

[Dom172Cup]

Definitely get a thread up, love a good rally build!

Will crack on with one, bank holiday with minima and work trip to Germany in the way so expect it probably back end of next week.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

120-130bhp would be pretty easy from the 1.4.

the head is quite restrictive, stays standard even on the 133/gt engine. we are just about to start on doing some work on the 1.6 but headwork will be the same. can you do anything on the head or has it got to be standard? will be doing a polyquad head, it isn't going to be cheap but gains can be pretty impressive though.

It's pretty free when it comes to that sort of thing. I've seen Mini engines with 16v bike heads on them and there are plenty of cars running engines from MIllington and Smith and Jones, which are basically bespoke. Stay under 2.5-litres and you can get away with most stuff really.

can you get away with being sneaky and fitting the 1600 bottom end, the K4J and K4M (1600) are pretty much the same engine.

there was a guy on here called oliver_K4M I believe, he done a bit of tuning on a 1600 K4M fitted to a mk1 clio, its all applicable to the 1400 too

That would upset the rule makers I suspect ?

Will crack on with one, bank holiday with minima and work trip to Germany in the way so expect it probably back end of next week.

Look forward to it

 

[bozothenutter]

PolyQuad - The future of 4 Valve Engines - MotorTec Magazine

Question: What does a PolyQuad head do better than a current and typical four valve per cylinder head? Answer - Everything ..

www.motortecmagazine.net

 

[Darren S]

Why was your heart not in the Puma? Just asking as I ran a puma for road rallys and stage for years. You may find that the 1400 is one of the most competitive classes as you need to spend to get results as you will be down 50-70bhp down.
You would probably be better in a MG zr in the 1400 class to start with.
But at the end of the day it's your choice and if you want to do something different in that class why not!

A shame the OP isn't a fan. The 1.7 version that my wife had at one point was a sublime drive. I can imagine (engine capacity difference aside) that making it lighter and with a couple of choice mods - would make for a cracking track car.

@Twingo 1?? - how were the rear arches on your car when you picked it up??

 

[Dom172Cup]

A shame the OP isn't a fan. The 1.7 version that my wife had at one point was a sublime drive. I can imagine (engine capacity difference aside) that making it lighter and with a couple of choice mods - would make for a cracking track car.

@Twingo 1?? - how were the rear arches on your car when you picked it up??

To be frank, I hated every minute of driving the Puma. Gave it half an hour of spirited driving before it began getting broken.

 

[bozothenutter]

120-130bhp would be pretty easy from the 1.4.

the head is quite restrictive, stays standard even on the 133/gt engine. we are just about to start on doing some work on the 1.6 but headwork will be the same. can you do anything on the head or has it got to be standard? will be doing a polyquad head, it isn't going to be cheap but gains can be pretty impressive though.

tell us more!

were you going to weld up combustion chambers to reprofile etc?

 

[Dom172Cup]

tell us more!

were you going to weld up combustion chambers to reprofile etc?

This

 

[Dom172Cup]

PolyQuad - The future of 4 Valve Engines - MotorTec Magazine

Question: What does a PolyQuad head do better than a current and typical four valve per cylinder head? Answer - Everything ..

www.motortecmagazine.net

Thank you thats just filled my lunch break.

 

[Twingo 1??]

@Twingo 1?? - how were the rear arches on your car when you picked it up??

I had it for around 8 years and it had done over 100 events the rear arches ended up being the usual puma rust but it wasn't the worst out there by a long shot.

Its still going somewhere so I can't of built it that bad lol.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I had it for around 8 years and it had done over 100 events the rear arches ended up being the usual puma rust but it wasn't the worst out there by a long shot.
View attachment 1416986

Its still going somewhere so I can't of built it that bad lol.

What sort of light bar did you use? Have wondered about trying one, but I'm a bit cheap lol

 

[bozothenutter]

thanks @bloke, now my mind is racing....non RS F4R heads, 1mm larger valve (maybe do as Dave and a 1mm smaller one too?), deeper seating of valves, different ports and obstructions in the combustion chamber,keep an eye on compression so it doesn't get too low, differents lifts for different size of valve? Custom camshafts, what pistons?


Heeeeeeeeeeyyyyy macarena!

 

[Twingo 1??]

What sort of light bar did you use? Have wondered about trying one, but I'm a bit cheap lol

It was just a cheap Chinese one. I found the first time I did Mull that I couldn't see the insides of hairpins and 90 l/R very well. This is the advantage of the bar over spots as they light up from the bonnet. They don't have the spot distance but when your in a slower car it's not an issue and it saves you putting corner pods on.
I have saved it for the Twingo but may put 2 spots on for distance and was thinking of converting the fog lights to run led's.

 

[Martin_172]

I can't fit a 1600 bottom end or this would put me in the 1600 class

That would upset the rule makers I suspect

That's why I said be sneaky lol, someone will be able to confirm if the 1600 block is bored out or if it's just stroke that's different, if it is just use the 1600 internals, if not bore it and use the Internals. Gives you the advantage you need over the lighter cars using the 1400s

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

It was just a cheap Chinese one. I found the first time I did Mull that I couldn't see the insides of hairpins and 90 l/R very well. This is the advantage of the bar over spots as they light up from the bonnet. They don't have the spot distance but when your in a slower car it's not an issue and it saves you putting corner pods on.
I have saved it for the Twingo but may put 2 spots on for distance and was thinking of converting the fog lights to run led's.

Yeah I've heard that a combination can work well. The Escort just has four spots and will probably stay that way but, when the next build starts, I think I might look into doing four spots in a lamp pod then, as you say, do some LEDs at fog level.

Not urgent really though, as we don't have many stages in the dark at all sadly.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

That's why I said be sneaky lol, someone will be able to confirm if the 1600 block is bored out or if it's just stroke that's different, if it is just use the 1600 internals, if not bore it and use the Internals. Gives you the advantage you need over the lighter cars using the 1400s

All depends on risk vs. reward I guess. If Motorsport UK found out, you would obviously be excluded from the event you were on, but I wouldn't be surprised if you suffered a ban or something too.

Wouldn't be much fun for me, knowing I had an advantage through dishonesty, though I'm sure there are plenty out there playing such tricks!

 

[Twingo 1??]

Yeah I've heard that a combination can work well. The Escort just has four spots and will probably stay that way but, when the next build starts, I think I might look into doing four spots in a lamp pod then, as you say, do some LEDs at fog level.

Not urgent really though, as we don't have many stages in the dark at all sadly.

Yeah it's a shame as I cut my cloth doing road rallys so enjoy night stages and it's one of the reasons I love Mull.

 

[Nathan Evans]

All depends on risk vs. reward I guess. If Motorsport UK found out, you would obviously be excluded from the event you were on, but I wouldn't be surprised if you suffered a ban or something too.

Wouldn't be much fun for me, knowing I had an advantage through dishonesty, though I'm sure there are plenty out there playing such tricks!

Most of the supposed 2.0 Vauxhall’s in many of the quick escorts aren’t 2.0 and I’ve never heard of anyone getting checked.


And in terms of tuning the 1.4. Yeah 120bhp is possible. And yes some micras have that, but the micra is a hell of a lot lighter than a Clio. And then there’s the 190bhp nova’s and I’m rallying on Sunday and there’s a 185bhp 1300 micra out.

Personally I’d sack the 1400 class off and go straight into 2.0. I’ve proven it with my car time and again. Yes it’s owes me a lot. But it’s beating cars with 70bhp more and 3 times the valve. The last 3 rally’s I’ve pretty much every stage been in the top 10 and fastest fwd car. Even a standard spec Clio that’s driven will can do well on certain events.

I understand it’s not all about that and you can have fun but you’d save a lot of money by just buying a micra or nova already done. Building a car from scratch costs way more than buying an already finished car.

And regarding the Eastern European countries. They have a strict class system. So all the cars will be a similar spec and bhp. Not like here when it’s anything goes.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Most of the supposed 2.0 Vauxhall’s in many of the quick escorts aren’t 2.0 and I’ve never heard of anyone getting checked.


And in terms of tuning the 1.4. Yeah 120bhp is possible. And yes some micras have that, but the micra is a hell of a lot lighter than a Clio. And then there’s the 190bhp nova’s and I’m rallying on Sunday and there’s a 185bhp 1300 micra out.

Personally I’d sack the 1400 class off and go straight into 2.0. I’ve proven it with my car time and again. Yes it’s owes me a lot. But it’s beating cars with 70bhp more and 3 times the valve. The last 3 rally’s I’ve pretty much every stage been in the top 10 and fastest fwd car. Even a standard spec Clio that’s driven will can do well on certain events.

I understand it’s not all about that and you can have fun but you’d save a lot of money by just buying a micra or nova already done. Building a car from scratch costs way more than buying an already finished car.

And regarding the Eastern European countries. They have a strict class system. So all the cars will be a similar spec and bhp. Not like here when it’s anything goes.

You're right in reality, pretty unlikely to get checked. Think I'm just old fashioned though. Don't see the satisfaction of you get a pot for winning the 2.0 class in a car bigger than 2.0. You're just cheating yourself really.

 

[Dom172Cup]

Most of the supposed 2.0 Vauxhall’s in many of the quick escorts aren’t 2.0 and I’ve never heard of anyone getting checked.


And in terms of tuning the 1.4. Yeah 120bhp is possible. And yes some micras have that, but the micra is a hell of a lot lighter than a Clio. And then there’s the 190bhp nova’s and I’m rallying on Sunday and there’s a 185bhp 1300 micra out.

Personally I’d sack the 1400 class off and go straight into 2.0. I’ve proven it with my car time and again. Yes it’s owes me a lot. But it’s beating cars with 70bhp more and 3 times the valve. The last 3 rally’s I’ve pretty much every stage been in the top 10 and fastest fwd car. Even a standard spec Clio that’s driven will can do well on certain events.

I understand it’s not all about that and you can have fun but you’d save a lot of money by just buying a micra or nova already done. Building a car from scratch costs way more than buying an already finished car.

And regarding the Eastern European countries. They have a strict class system. So all the cars will be a similar spec and bhp. Not like here when it’s anything goes.

I’m most of the way there already in terms of core build. As such at the moment it’s cost me significantly less than buying a done car unless I go power chasing. Cost isn’t the main driving factor of me going 1.4 the classes look fun and as I said before I’m an engineer I like the idea of engineering out the problems and this will bring me as much enjoyment as the rallying (don’t judge me as sad ?) You said yourself you’re in a class with a power deficit.

Thank you for the info on the Eastern European classes which make more sense.

With the car itself if it irritates me enough i’ll 1*2 swap it. I genuinely welcome the experienced input.

That said I came to ask for small capacity tuning advice not to discuss which class I should be in ??‍♂️?

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Maybe you should contact these guys, this looks pretty rapid!



I reckon I would just try and build a spare engine over time. Set of cams, some head work, maybe a skim if you can get away with it, then some ITBs and a decent exhaust if you can find one, see where that gets you. Should go well if you can get the weight right down. Cheap enough to replace if it fails too. Could look at pistons and rods further down the road if you felt the need.

What box do the 1400s use? Is it the same as a 1*2?

 

[Martin_172]

1.4 will use a jb3, a 172 jc5 will fit though. The 3 is fine though and probably shorter ratios

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Oh ok. Guess it depends if diffs etc are available for the jb3

 

[stumac]

Have a look at http://www.xrallyparts.com

It's in French but they have an English button somewhere. They supply maxi engine parts, I'm sure I read somewhere they they do a 1400 kit, they do have parts listed for the K4J though but its not cheap.