172 Clio into an R5 GTT

[James5_GTT]

Been out for the last couple of hours with my multimeter and wiring guide and still no joy what I have seems to be wired up fine, I even managed to wire up the GTT dash rev counter and oil pressure switch whilst trying to sort this out.

Don't know what to do now am totally clueless

Anybody local good with elecs fancy taking a gander to see what they think a 2nd pair of eyes might help

 

[Matteh]

have you used the 10k pullup method?

 

[James5_GTT]

have you used the 10k pullup method?

What's this then???

 

[Matteh]

sorry, i meant for the rev counter.. how did you get yours working?

 

[MK3 Dan]

Do you think it could be the fuel pump then? Tried wiring the pump straight to the battery to make sure its getting the full 12 volts?

Also do you have a fuel pressure gauge that you could plumb in just to check that it is holding fuel pressure?

 

[James5_GTT]

Do you think it could be the fuel pump then? Tried wiring the pump straight to the battery to make sure its getting the full 12 volts?

Also do you have a fuel pressure gauge that you could plumb in just to check that it is holding fuel pressure?

Funny you say that I wired in a live switch to the pump so I can have it on constantly and it makes it a little better but still the same.

 

[T.Trophy]

Mate you could email ktec and ask what presure there uprated pump runs at? Then compare it to the one you've got.

 

[James5_GTT]

Funny you say that I wired in a live switch to the pump so I can have it on constantly and it makes it a little better but still the same.

I do have psi boost gauge that I could use to get a fuel pressure reading

 

[MK3 Dan]

I don't know much about these engines as spend my days working with bike engined cars, but sounds like fuel to me? Sounds like as soon as the injectors open fuel pressure is dropping hence not running for long?

I would find out what pressure you should be running then getting a gauge on there to check!

Also do this body run a TPS? If so is that set up in the correct place? Have you removed it?

 

[MK3 Dan]

Also, and possible making myself sound very stupid here, does this not have a pump within the tank as well? And if so is that going to be able to keep up with your uprated pump?

Sorry if I am being stupid here, as I said not experience with these engines/cars!

 

[Matteh]

theres only 1 pump iirc

good shout about the TPS though!

 

[Jim NM]

I've had two 5s and was never done fixing them. I suppose that's why I got another one. Bit dated now though. Turn up the boost and they are rapid. But break alot.

 

[James5_GTT]

Yeah only the 1 fuel pump and it is external not in the tank like a normal 172 as this engine is in an r5 gtt I have used an external cossie fuel pump

Tps has not been touched

 

[Jim NM]

Yeah only the 1 fuel pump and it is external not in the tank like a normal 172 as this engine is in an r5 gtt I have used an external cossie fuel pump

Tps has not been touched

Full pump under car, connectors usually come loose and cause probs, bit exposed to water. You know its working when you hear it whining

 

[MK3 Dan]

Well i reckon check fuel pressure is holding then, also check spark (which I think you have done!), and check the injector is firing, remove it plug it into loom and then turn it over!

If you wanted as a last resort you could send your injectors to me and I can flow them in work and make sure there ok, but I don't think they are really a problem with Renaults!?

 

[James5_GTT]

I know the injector is firing as I have had the rail of with all the injectors connected and they fire fine (I am not using standard 172 fuel rail) I am using bosch injectors and a modified volvo T5 alloy fuel rail.

I think I defo need to check the fuel pressure though

 

[James5_GTT]

Many thanks for all the advice, some very good advice here will take a look
cheers James

 

[MK3 Dan]

Any luck yet?!

 

[James5_GTT]

Any luck yet?!

No not yet got 3.5 bar to rail.

Going to get a new tdc so that I can elimnate that. Cheers for all the advice though

 

[James5_GTT]

Updated engine bay pic

 

[Timmay]

cool!

 

[James5_GTT]

Still not blooding running this is so confusing:S, I have replaced the TDC (brand new from Renault), bridged the inertia switch, got 3 bar fuel pressure to rail, injectors are firing, fuel pump is on a switch and I have checked my wiring which to be honest isn't much required to get it running.
Live wires
Battery to starter,
Battery to alternator,
Battery to 172 engine loom,
Ignition barrel to battery,
Ignition lives,
Ignition barrel to 172 engine loom,
Earths,
4 x engine earths,
the usual interior earth points,
As said above the fuel pump is on a switch (Temporary solution for the ime being)
??????????:S:S:S:S:S

 

[James5_GTT]

Bump

 

[Matteh]

it's not your crank position sensor if the injectors are firing

the coilpack has 3 wires, 2 are signal wires from the ecu and the other should be a 12v feed from the ecu (pin 1 i think?) - check you have 12v here?

 

[Jay Payne]

Where are you based James?

 

[James5_GTT]

Where are you based James?

Horsham, west Sussex

 

[Jay Payne]

Too far for me to come and have a look for you then, bummer

 

[James5_GTT]

Too far for me to come and have a look for you then, bummer

Dammm Gloustershire is a fair trip

Hopefully somebody local will be up for it:rasp:

 

[MK3 Dan]

There is no way you could get another engine loom to try just to be sure? Or an ECU of a car that is running?

Two simple things that I guess you have checked anyway, not trying to insult but its normally the little things missed!

The battery earthed properly and all the earth's are to metal and not paint?

Checked for a spark? And one that stays strong when the engine is turn't over for like 15secs?

 

[James5_GTT]

I am sending the ecu to fellow cliosport member next week to try on hid Clio phase 1 conversion this will then hopefully eliminate the ecu.

 

[James5_GTT]

Further update, had a 15 min play tonight to do some quick tests and tidy things up a bit and I found the following-

Fuel pressure to fuel rail 3.0bar,
4 x Engine earths to metal,
Sparkies are firing with very good spark,

I then decided to take the fuel rail of tonight to make sure the injectors are firing to find that they were NOT firing??? (Strange as they were firing the last time I took the rail off).


Anybody got some spare working injectors I could try??

 

[Matteh]

have you had a multimeter on the injector plugs to see if its the injectors or the ecu/wiring at fault?

 

[ditz]

stick a noid light (or a 501 sidelight bulb with the ends bent out) in one of the plugs check they are being fired.

its unlikely and to be honest i'd go as far as to impossible that all injectors have failed..

they may not have a live.. you should have an ignition live which i think comes from the fuel pump relay.. then ecu is a lowside switch to two of them at a time

 

[James5_GTT]

have you had a multimeter on the injector plugs to see if its the injectors or the ecu/wiring at fault?

No - But will check tomoz to make sure

stick a noid light (or a 501 sidelight bulb with the ends bent out) in one of the plugs check they are being fired.

its unlikely and to be honest i'd go as far as to impossible that all injectors have failed..

they may not have a live.. you should have an ignition live which i think comes from the fuel pump relay.. then ecu is a lowside switch to two of them at a time

I do defo think it is the injectors that have failed for the following reason the 172 standard Injectors I believe are Pico 250cc min @ 3bar 14.5 ohms (High Impedance). Now because I have used a modified alloy fuel rail from another car (Volvo Turbo) the standard 172 Injectors would not allow the alloy rail to be used (FPR fitment problems) so i had to source some injectors from a different car (Cossie). Cossie yellow spec (standard cossie injectors) Bosch 270cc min @ 3bar I have just found out that they run 2-6 ohms (low impendance).

So I reckon due to them being low impendance I cannot use in them in the high impendance injectors system of the 172 hence them not working properly everytime or if at all.

Anybody got some spare working Bosch injectors I could try pref 250cc min @3bar 14.5ohms??

 

[ditz]

ah, i thought this was standard injectors we were talking.......

if that were the case it would have been near impossible for 4 to fail at the same time..

if thats the case i guess its posisble,, i still say check the feeds though im no expert in that area but im trying to work out how that would cause them to fail as they still run the same voltage and all its doing is being switched by an earth,, i can see it affecting performance yeah but resistance of whats consuming the power should make no difference???

if you put 20 headlight bulbs in a lighting circuit the resistance would increase.. but it wouldnt cause the bulbs to fail, if anything it would kill the supply ie fuses etc,,,


so on that logic may have damaged the injector drivers in the ecu?

 

[James5_GTT]

ah, i thought this was standard injectors we were talking.......

if that were the case it would have been near impossible for 4 to fail at the same time..

if thats the case i guess its posisble,, i still say check the feeds though im no expert in that area but im trying to work out how that would cause them to fail as they still run the same voltage and all its doing is being switched by an earth,, i can see it affecting performance yeah but resistance of whats consuming the power should make no difference???

if you put 20 headlight bulbs in a lighting circuit the resistance would increase.. but it wouldnt cause the bulbs to fail, if anything it would kill the supply ie fuses etc,,,


so on that logic may have damaged the injector drivers in the ecu?

I thought that also with the ECU so am sending it away next week to be tested on another 172 conversion that requires a de-mobilised ECU to be used.

 

[Woznaldo]

In the Megasquirt ECU tuning manual it states that if you are going to low impedance injectors, that you MUST use resistor packs or you will burn the drivers out! (Megasquirt uses high impedance as std)

 

[MK3 Dan]

I can run your injectors on our machine at work to make sure they are flowing correct and working fine if you needed?

 

[James5_GTT]

I can run your injectors on our machine at work to make sure they are flowing correct and working fine if you needed?

That does sound like a good idea but to be honest I am going to need to change then for some 14.5 high impodence jobbies now as I only found out yesterday that they were low impodence. I should have looked further into their spec

 

[James5_GTT]

Well still not running having a few teethig problems to which I am attempting to rectify at the moment

Couple of update pics