197 engine and box into 172

[Adey.]

do you think it would be possible to do this conversion and just fit the 182 dephaser and actuator and then get the standard ecu remapped to suit? or do you need the cams aswell. could be good to get a 6 speed in the clio, seems to rev a little high at mnotorway speeds

 

[NorthloopCup]

do you think it would be possible to do this conversion and just fit the 182 dephaser and actuator and then get the standard ecu remapped to suit? or do you need the cams aswell. could be good to get a 6 speed in the clio, seems to rev a little high at mnotorway speeds

It'll rev even higher with a 197 box fitted mate.

 

[Adey.]

Oh does it? I'll go get myself a ph1 box then lol, had a few ph1s this trophy just seems to sit a little higher in the revs at motorway cruising speed

 

[Chip-mk1]

do you think it would be possible to do this conversion and just fit the 182 dephaser and actuator and then get the standard ecu remapped to suit? or do you need the cams aswell. could be good to get a 6 speed in the clio, seems to rev a little high at mnotorway speeds

You can use 172 or 197 cams interchangably.

The 197 gearing is lower not higher though, on 182 sized tyres it will rev just under 10% more than it does currently for the same speed and have a very racey feeling close ratio 6 speed box.

You would be better off using a megane box if you want hte revs to go down not up.

I dont know how you would get on trying to use standard ecu from a 182 on the 197, as the crank sensor is different and is located differently, you might need to swap the crank sensor (and by swap I mean modify to accept) and possibly need a new flywheel to correct the offset. Not an issue if on aftermarket though.

If you do get the 182 ecu to accept the 197 crank input, then you would still HAVE to use the 182 dephasor as the 197 one is designed to be close loop controlled on a pulse width modulation output, where as the 182 ecu just says on or off!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Oh does it? I'll go get myself a ph1 box then lol, had a few ph1s this trophy just seems to sit a little higher in the revs at motorway cruising speed

ph1 is approx 5% higher geared, so a couple of hundred rpm difference at motorway speeds.

 

[warwickstingray]

I wouldn't worry about the box life if you have mechanical sympathy. I've yet to see a person that claims they aren't heavy handed actually not be heavy handed. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that. Which is why I don't believe any of the dual mass crap but that's another discussion. The difference to the change on my cup if you stop trying to cut through he box. Sure you lose a couple of tenths per change at the most (10hz GPS trace) but no banging, no thumps and no crunches. You may even save some time by never missing a change. Fit a knackered quickshift like mine had as it did a good job of protecting the box by only allowing the slowest of changes gonna watch this as the change to 4th is when these start to lose their edge. A little lower would see the ton appearing just enough quicker to fend quite a lot more off that bit longer down the straights.

 

[Chip-mk1]

There are undoubtably reliability issues with the box, but I do agree that driving in a mechanically sympathetic manner by being slightly less aggressive on changes will hugely reduce your chance of an early failure.

Im not really all that bothered if I have to change the box now and then though TBH, its not the end of the world especially with EPAS making the job simpler.

 

[Goodj]

cant you get a box refurbed to have a longer final drive (or something like that?).

 

[Chip-mk1]

cant you get a box refurbed to have a longer final drive (or something like that?).

It depends if one is available, you can put a ph1 final drive into a ph2 box for example with the 172, but there are finite limits on the number of options, to get the gears custom made would be horribly expensive, as if you want to keep the spiral bevel helical you would probably have to pay 20k+ in tooling charges to the make the first pair!

 

[Goodj]

When you started talking about "horribly expensive" I thoguht
"yeah, and? You're not tearing this poor little RB apart without a budget"
then, £20k, fair enough....


...you could buy a good track car for that

 

[Chip-mk1]

When you started talking about "horribly expensive" I thoguht
"yeah, and? You're not tearing this poor little RB apart without a budget"
then, £20k, fair enough....


...you could buy a good track car for that

Have got some good track cars already but for things like ring trips its actually nicer to have a good road car that is also nice to drive on track than to have to do the trip sweating our arses off in something like a tesco value cup clio on hard suspension just cause its slightly better round the track when we get there.

If I am taking a car to a trackday on a trailer, its a different story, but sometimes its nice to be able to go holiday or other trip and just incorporate a trackday along the way, Ive popped into an evening session at bedford just cause I was on my way past to go snowboarding before for example.

 

[NorthloopCup]

If the TL4 box is anything like the JC5 it will only wear out the dog teeth on the gear (the expensive bit to replace) rather than wearing out the softer synchro ring teeth.

 

[Jay Payne]

ph1 is approx 5% higher geared, so a couple of hundred rpm difference at motorway speeds.

Final drive is different Adey, all gears are the same ratio as phase 2. You could look at getting a taller 5th gear for motorway work. (not sure one exists) Phase 2 final drive good for about 115-120mph in 4th for trackdays

 

[warwickstingray]

Final drive is different Adey, all gears are the same ratio as phase 2. You could look at getting a taller 5th gear for motorway work. (not sure one exists) Phase 2 final drive good for about 115-120mph in 4th for trackdays

You can nudge the standard limiter in 4th at Combe in a 182 FF 2up so I can understand why 5th gets lowered on these. Annoyingly its not low enough to be of use on track as standard (although in a flyweight Clio it's a little better) and not tall enough for Motorway cruising!

 

[Dan]

how similar/ disimilar are the R26/225 boxes from the 197 box?

if they are similar would the 6th gear from the meg box be made to fit the 197 box giving you lower RPM cruising for the motorway?

 

[Martin_172]

I agree the box doesn't stand up very well to ham fisted ejits but then neither do JC5's!

you never see the DCI106 with the same box as a 197/200 needing new boxes as they are generally not thrashed through gears and most of them are doing 100,000+

my 200 done 15k hard hard miles, went thru 2 engines and various other parts but the box was sweet as a nut.

my GT DCI went flat out every day for 25k/18 months and again no issues box felt as good as new.

Diesel box may be a nice compromise between the ratios of the 197 and the megane box chip but im not 100% sure, from memory mine would do 100mph at 3000rpm in 6th

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Later 197 box or 200 box with the longer 5th and 6th with a R26 4.07 final drive would be ok (if that's possible). Not much difference in terms of top gear compared with the JC5-129.

 

[Chip-mk1]

The 225 (or if you can find one an R26) box would actually be totally epic as an all rounder box if that is what you are trying to make lads!

The first five gears are slightly closer than a ph2 jc5 box, so it would be even better on track than the standard box, and then it bangs a cruising 6th gear on the end as well.

So no need to starting making mix and match boxes.

If you want a trackday only box then use a 197 box, geared for about 135 flat out.
Or for a big power trackday only car, use a 200 box, that adds 10mph, both with really close 6 ratios




These are based on 205/50/15 tyres, for other tyre sizes it will vary slightly.

PHASE 2 172 (ALSO WITH MEGANE FIFTH)
Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
11	34	0.324		0.080	40.6	43.3
22	41	0.537	1.659	0.132	67.3	71.8
28	37	0.757	1.410	0.186	94.9	101.2
34	35	0.971	1.284	0.239	121.8	129.9
39	31	1.258	1.295	0.309	157.8	168.3
37	33	1.121	1.154	0.276	140.6	150.0	Alternative 5th gear
Crown	Pinion	Diff ratio
61	15	4.067
MEGANE 225
Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
13	41	0.317		0.078	39.7	42.4
18	35	0.514	1.622	0.126	64.4	68.7
28	39	0.718	1.396	0.176	89.9	95.9
36	38	0.947	1.320	0.233	118.7	126.6
42	34	1.235	1.304	0.303	154.7	165.1
49	33	1.485	1.567	0.365	186.0	198.4
Crown	Pinion	Diff ratio
57	14	4.071
Clio 197 TL4 003
Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
11	35	0.314		0.073	37.2	39.6
19	37	0.514	1.634	0.119	60.7	64.8
29	43	0.674	1.313	0.156	79.8	85.1
34	41	0.829	1.230	0.192	98.1	104.6
38	39	0.974	1.175	0.226	115.2	122.9
39	34	1.147	1.383	0.266	135.7	144.7
Crown	Pinion	Diff ratio
69	16	4.313
Clio 197 TL4 024
Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
11	35	0.314		0.073	37.2	39.6
19	37	0.514	1.634	0.119	60.7	64.8
29	43	0.674	1.313	0.156	79.8	85.1
34	41	0.829	1.230	0.192	98.1	104.6
35	34	1.029	1.241	0.239	121.7	129.9
37	30	1.233	1.487	0.286	145.9	155.6
Crown	Pinion	Diff ratio
69	16	4.313

People diss the 197 box for reliability, but I guarentee if you put a JC5 into a 197 with the really nice shift that encourages you to race up through the box and the revvy engine and all that weight they would last even less time!
Its NOT less reliable than the JC5, it just is in a much more demanding environment.

I'm going to use a 197 box in my Ph1 with a 180bhp or so N/A engine, and im going to use an R26 box in my Cup with a 300bhp or so Turbo engine.

 

[Martin.]

I'm going to use an R26 box in my Cup with a 300bhp or so Turbo engine.

EPIC

 

[Chip-mk1]

EPIC

Decided it would be rude not to

Just to show mitch what he should have done, lol.

Although he will probably still prefer his GTR anyway of course

 

[Martin.]

Any chance you might have it done by the Bedford season opener in Feb? Or is that far too much to ask lol.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Any chance you might have it done by the Bedford season opener in Feb? Or is that far too much to ask lol.

The 197 ph1 yes I hope so, the turbo cup no I dont think so.

Makes no sense starting on the cup until I know for certain the whole mk3 engine and 6 speed box works well, so going to finish the 197 conversion first.


Depends how things pan out though, might get lucky and get made redundant or something so have more time free, lol.