Can different tyres really change the balance that much?

[Will_bmx]

I know that sounds obvious, and I'm about to pretty much answer my own question with a yes. But can it really make that much of a difference?
Basically I was running contisport 2's already as fitted by the previous owner, these were AMAZING and the car stuck like sh1t to a you know what. It also had neutral to oversteer on the handling and felt amazing. barely ever understeered unless you tried to make it. However I replaced all four last month with Maxxis new VS01 tyre. I wanted to try a budget again as the conti's did wear out bloody quick so thought it would be worth the gamble. I expected lower overall grip yes, but I didn't expect it to turn into an understeering demon? I've had a play with pressures and its a "little" better, but still an understeering monster. Any suggestions or is it simply the lower end tyres doing their party trick? The total grip is not bad at all and in the wet they brake and accelerate very well, it's just lateral in all scenarios. I took it round curborough last month and was so disappointed by the grip, I never took it round on the conti's but I know they'd have just stuck like mad. Can't get it on three wheels either anymore!
Cheers,

Will

 

[Knuckles]

Should it not be 'stuck like you know what to a blanket'? Because 'blanket' isn't the expletive in that sentence.

 

[sbridgey]

I always thought it was to a shovel.

 

[Advikaz]

Agree with Kuckles comment on the explicits. Although IIRC it is a shovel...

Yes gash tyres make a pretty noticable difference.

I've got sport contact 5's, pretty happy with them.

 

[H182]

Shovel is used when saying 'goes like s**t off' as in it doesn't stick IMO.

 

[Addicted]

It's the only thing keeping you on the road, and there's a price difference for a reason imo.

If you want some good advice - buy some more tyres that aren't budget!

 

[Advikaz]

It's the only thing keeping you on the road, and there's a price difference for a reason imo.

If you want some good advice - buy some more tyres that aren't budget!

Good point well made.

Miss read the ops post.

 

[Will_bmx]

I am so confused by the explicit responses haha. Is it not correct forum etiquette? If so I apologise!

Well it's nice to hear I'm not just going mad as it's such a shame. I think I might wack some PS3's on the front and let the back end try and keep up haha.

 

[JAMason]

Tyres make a massif difference! Im happy with my new Kumho's, loads better than the ditch finders that were fitted before!

 

[Hakers]

Goes like sh!t of a shovel = quick

Sticks like sh!t to a shoe = sticky. Though the blanket i guess works.

Budgets = ditch finders, wouldn't buy a car with them on. Tyres make a lot of difference. As have been said, they are what keeps you on the road and worth paying for a decent set. FWIW have Eagle F1s which I find to be very good.

 

[Knuckles]

I always thought it was to a shovel.

Well no, that saying is 'like s**t off a shovel', isn't it?

have you ever tried to get s**t off a blanket? Doesn't work so well lol

 

[sbridgey]

Well no, that saying is 'like s**t off a shovel', isn't it?

Ahh yeah you're right, not heard the blanket comment before though.

 

[Will_bmx]

Thanks for the input guys! I just didn't expect the balance to change so much but I guess as it's such a front dependant car it should probably be expected.
Are there any decent tyres that have the same grip as the top ones without the prices?

 

[Advikaz]

Thanks for the input guys! I just didn't expect the balance to change so much but I guess as it's such a front dependant car it should probably be expected.
Are there any decent tyres that have the same grip as the top ones without the prices?

I found Black Circles pretty reasonable for my conti 5's!

 

[Knuckles]

Ahh yeah you're right, not heard the blanket comment before though.

It must be a north/south thing.I asked a bloke at work to make sure I wasn't crazy and he concurred it was a blanket. Up here at least

Thanks for the input guys! I just didn't expect the balance to change so much but I guess as it's such a front dependant car it should probably be expected.Are there any decent tyres that have the same grip as the top ones without the prices?

Nexen n6000 are decent budget tyres. I had them on the front of my 197 when I first got it and oddly, they made it more oversteery than when I had contis all round. When I got contis on the front to match the back, it transformed the car though. Made it so much more adjustable and planted.

 

[Will_bmx]

It must be a north/south thing.I asked a bloke at work to make sure I wasn't crazy and he concurred it was a blanket. Up here at least Nexen n6000 are decent budget tyres. I had them on the front of my 197 when I first got it and oddly, they made it more oversteery than when I had contis all round. When I got contis on the front to match the back, it transformed the car though. Made it so much more adjustable and planted.

I just say to a shovel and either change, sticks or shifts haha. Lazy way.

Yeah I had Nexens on the back on the MR2 Turbo and they were ok. I think I'll just go top end instead, worth the extra pennies completely. I love driving hard so it's not worth the lack of balance.

 

[Knuckles]

I genuinely can't believe some budget tyres are allowed to be sold. They make such a fuss about tread depths and roadworthyness... Then they go and sell ditch finders?!

 

[Will_bmx]

I genuinely can't believe some budget tyres are allowed to be sold. They make such a fuss about tread depths and roadworthyness... Then they go and sell ditch finders?!

Haha yeah so true, the contis I had on were at about 1mm before I changed them and in the dry it was oversteering on power at about 5k rpm! Just wouldn't run out of grip!

 

[Barnett]

Haha yeah so true, the contis I had on were at about 1mm before I changed them and in the dry it was oversteering on power at about 5k rpm! Just wouldn't run out of grip!

Tread depths don't really matter in the dry, in fact bald tyres would grip better in the dry than brand new tyres since there'd be more rubber on the road (hence why F1 tyres look like that). It makes a difference in the wet though as there's nowhere for the water to go so you'd just aquaplane over it with bald tyres. (Although I could be wrong about all of that)

With regard to the s**t shovel/blanket/etc. conundrum, I can confirm that s**t off a shovel means fast and the term for sticking that I'm used to is "like s**t to a sheet", which is similar to the blanket one but seems to roll off the tongue a bit better imo. I'm from the North/Midlands if that has any baring on what I'd be likely to say.

 

[Danith]

Everytime I've taken the cheap nasty crap I've bought with the car for something half decent it's like a different car and makes it so much more pleasant to drive.

Cheap tyres ruin cars.

 

[Will_bmx]

Tread depths don't really matter in the dry, in fact bald tyres would grip better in the dry than brand new tyres since there'd be more rubber on the road (hence why F1 tyres look like that). It makes a difference in the wet though as there's nowhere for the water to go so you'd just aquaplane over it with bald tyres. (Although I could be wrong about all of that)

With regard to the s**t shovel/blanket/etc. conundrum, I can confirm that s**t off a shovel means fast and the term for sticking that I'm used to is "like s**t to a sheet", which is similar to the blanket one but seems to roll off the tongue a bit better imo. I'm from the North/Midlands if that has any baring on what I'd be likely to say.

Yeah you're very much right, especially with the aquaplaning. The only thing I would say (and I could be wrong with this) is that slick tyres that are designed that way have a certain amount of rubber in the same way that road tyres have tread depth and that this movement of the rubber generates the heat (along with the sidewall flex to a certain degree) which in turn helps grip. With a road tyre that's worn down to slick I'd presume and I'm under the impression that as the blocks are so low/no longer there, there's not enough rubber to create the movement needed to generate sufficient grip / not enough rubber to mould into the ground either. Could be wrong though!

 

[182Trophy]

Thanks for the input guys! I just didn't expect the balance to change so much but I guess as it's such a front dependant car it should probably be expected.
Are there any decent tyres that have the same grip as the top ones without the prices?

I tried pirelli p zero nero gt's and was very impressed with them. The back ones lasted ages. Good grip and usually in a deal whenever i have gone for tyres. Granted they aren't as good as the michelins i have now but not far off imo.

 

[SharkyUK]

Tyres (and brakes). Two areas you don't want to go down the budget route with; especially with a car with a bit of performance / pace to it. One of my pet peeves is folks who own cars like these (1*2's) and then throw Dagnabbit Ditchfinders on it.

 

[Stefan.]

Wow there are some stupid people in this thread lol!

I agree with sharky!

 

[Will_bmx]

Wow there are some stupid people in this thread lol!

I agree with sharky!

I do hope you're not including me in that as I can assure I'm not stupid, just like to test for myself rather than presuming that what you read is correct online. I would've thought maxxis new top of the range summer tyre would be OK as I've heard some positive things but damn they suck haha.
And again just to reiterate, I knew overall grip would be down but I was shocked by the shift of balance from oversteer to under steer.

 

[BoatNonce]

Pound for pound the best thing you can do to a car really. Going from ditch finders to decent tyres.

 

[Steve]

Define a ditch finder???

I remember getting slated for mentioning federal RSR's years ago, how things change.

I wish them that comment would buy & try the tyres before making judgements

 

[B17BLG]

The difference for the OP would probably be a softer sidewall if your struggling with lateral load, but the acceleration and deceleration of the car is still good.

In regards to the post above, Same with nankangs, the most common descriptive word of the brand is ditchfinder

 

[Will_bmx]

Define a ditch finder???

I remember getting slated for mentioning federal RSR's years ago, how things change.

I wish them that comment would buy & try the tyres before making judgements

Nail on the head. That's exactly why I do try out these new cheaper tyres, in case I suddenly find a hidden gem. Unfortunately its not the case this time but its always worth a try. I appreciate tyres seem to be pretty much "get what you pay for" but let's be honest guys there's a lot of stuff in life people say that for and its just brand snobbery which is why I always give the smaller companies a go. Lesson learnt though I think with tyres!

 

[Will_bmx]

The difference for the OP would probably be a softer sidewall if your struggling with lateral load, but the acceleration and deceleration of the car is still good.

In regards to the post above, Same with nankangs, the most common descriptive word of the brand is ditchfinder

I would say you're probably right, unfortunately I can't seem to get a good balance playing with pressures and even at standard pressures you could see scrubbing over half way down the sidewall after going round Curborough !
Oddly I've just tried 26 in the front and it seems potentially better but that's a crude test on some islands.

 

[Steve]

In regards to the post above, Same with nankangs, the most common descriptive word of the brand is ditchfinder

Now the latest Nankang NS2R will have them that don't know anything saying the same.

Fact is as a budget tyre it performs excellent on road & track.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...qICQCA&usg=AFQjCNFeHeAaDQMUE0XGsr7ty-rc5zT71A

You could still waste your money on expensive tyres, myself I would rather spend it DOING trackdays

 

[B17BLG]

Now the latest Nankang NS2R will have them that don't know anything saying the same.

Fact is as a budget tyre it performs excellent on road & track.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...qICQCA&usg=AFQjCNFeHeAaDQMUE0XGsr7ty-rc5zT71A

You could still waste your money on expensive tyres, myself I would rather spend it DOING trackdays

Same with NS2's tbh

 

[Will_bmx]

Now the latest Nankang NS2R will have them that don't know anything saying the same.

Fact is as a budget tyre it performs excellent on road & track.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...qICQCA&usg=AFQjCNFeHeAaDQMUE0XGsr7ty-rc5zT71A

You could still waste your money on expensive tyres, myself I would rather spend it DOING trackdays

Funny you mention those as I was reading about them recently and as you say they're a prime example of a diamond in the rough. Has anyone got any suggestions on where to get these cheap, I'm aware of Camskill and I'm lucky to have a cheap place by me but I don't think they'd do these. Tah!

 

[Zephyrous]

Just to chip in, I find price roughly determines the quality of the compound so the cheaper the tyre the more plastic crap style rubber you get and the more expensive the more rubber-rubber you get Then with brands you get better compounds with the company's that have more knowledge and years of development. The leading brands will still have different characteristics to each other and it's a case find the ones you like. I've just bought new Michelin PS3 to replace the plastic crap on now, you can feel the difference just by rubbing your hand across.

 

[Adam G]

The same can be said with some expensive brands, that some people on here swear by when recommending tyres. From what I know, I wouldn't touch a couple of premium makes with a barge pole. A ditch finder is only found, by a driver expecting too much of a £40 tyre. Generally you get what you pay for but not all the time. I think a vast majority of comments on these kind of threads, are people just name dropping and a lot probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

[Zephyrous]

The same can be said with some expensive brands, that some people on here swear by when recommending tyres. From what I know, I wouldn't touch a couple of premium makes with a barge pole. A ditch finder is only found, by a driver expecting too much of a £40 tyre. Generally you get what you pay for but not all the time. I think a vast majority of comments on these kind of threads, are people just name dropping and a lot probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

You have a good point, there are brands that people say are good and still don't perform as good as cheaper tyres. Should test them out for your self and no the limit of the tyre you buy.

 

[Chip-mk1]

To answer the actual question.

I would suspect that by lowering the overall grip you have now brought it down in speed in terms of when it lets go to a point you are braver at so are noticing it more perhaps?

but another very likely possibility is that you have to remember the horrific weight imbalance between front and rear so it may be that your previous tyres coped better on the front with lots of weight than the did on the rear without it.

Ie the front and rear of a car like a Clio are very different environments for a tyre so it's perfectly reasonable that one tyre might cope ok at one end and not the other and vice versa.

So "yes" I would say. They can and do alter the balance.

 

[BoatNonce]

To answer the actual question.

Yes.

I concur.

The T1R's on mine at the moment are shite for grip but the balance between under and oversteer is spot on.

 

[Will_bmx]

To answer the actual question.

I would suspect that by lowering the overall grip you have now brought it down in speed in terms of when it lets go to a point you are braver at so are noticing it more perhaps?

but another very likely possibility is that you have to remember the horrific weight imbalance between front and rear so it may be that your previous tyres coped better on the front with lots of weight than the did on the rear without it.

Ie the front and rear of a car like a Clio are very different environments for a tyre so it's perfectly reasonable that one tyre might cope ok at one end and not the other and vice versa.

So "yes" I would say. They can and do alter the balance.

I concur.

The T1R's on mine at the moment are s**te for grip but the balance between under and oversteer is spot on.

Woo direct responses haha. Cheers guys for confirming you experience the same.

I'm not Schumacher but I do know how to drive on the limit pretty well and I can confirm it was a case of balance not bravery but your point is completely fair had that been the case.
I've managed to neutralise it a bit with tyre pressures so I'll keep experimenting.

 

[Will_bmx]

Just as an update. I've had these tyres on for a bit longer now and I went round Curborough again Saturday. I take back a lot of what I said. They just took forever to scrub in I think! The car was mint and like it was on rails with some oversteer like before. Running 28psi all round they feel perfect and I'm genuinely quite happy with them. Probably helped that I've got rc5+ pads on that let me keep it on the nose easily to help turn in but at the moment the set up is spot on.