Clio race car set up - Camber/Toe

[v8ish]

Hi guys, any clio racers on here with that have a proven "base" set up. I know all cars are different but I'm struggling with understeer.

I've got the back end just perfect but the front is still washing out. I'm at -2.4 camber.

The inside front strip of both tyres are 10 degrees warmer than the rest.

Ive tried stiffending the rear up to no avail.

Any suggestions on front camber, toe and suspension stiffness front/rear on Gaz.

Thanks

 

[Chip-mk1]

How high are you?

If its lowered a lot then a lot of the understeer is probably more about your roll centre being terrible than the geo in terms of toe and camber.

 

[182Matt]

LOL, chip you make me laugh mate

 

[Chip-mk1]

LOL, chip you make me laugh mate

No humour was intended, what do you mean?

 

[Steven103]

"How high are you?"

...perhaps. Though I'm not sure 182matt twigged that you were referring to ride height?

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'd have thought the follow up of "if its lowered a lot.." made it quite obvious what the "how high are you" referred to TBH?

 

[Tony Hunter]

10 deg warmer, after doing what? motorway driving, track , lanes??? It's not simple science, so many factors to consider other than the obvious.

 

[v8ish]

10 deg warmer, after doing what? motorway driving, track , lanes??? It's not simple science, so many factors to consider other than the obvious.

10 degrees warmer on the side inch of both front tyres after a 40 minute race at silverstone using a digital laser gauge. The rest of each tyre didn't vary by more than 3 degreesThis is not a road legal car. Cheers

 

[Tony Hunter]

This will happen at Silverstone (because of the long straights) so not a very good indicator really, they would be completely different say at Oulton, Cadwell.

10 deg is not the end of the world anyway, plus a laser gauge is not the best thing really.

 

[Steven103]

A 10 deg spread on the worst tyre is absolutely fine on this sort of car.

However a 3 deg spread sounds quite suspect & casts doubt on the 10 deg.

Infra Red gauges are great for things like brake discs or radiators where you want surface temperatures, but very inaccurate for tyres where you typically want carcass temperature, hence the type with a 5mm or so probe are preferred. If you have such a luxury, looking at the tyre wear across a new set of tyres will be far more useful for gauging camber than surface temperature. Surface temp is really a very poor property to go off - it reduces too quickly in the pit box let alone when the tyre is being air cooled at 100mph!

Going stiffer will typically increase temps (the rubber tyre deforms more as the spring/damper does less) but make the wear more even across the tread (the higher roll stiffness means the camber angle changes less between a straight and a corner)

Also, tyre temp spread is useless without knowing what the outright temps are! (along with an idea of ambient temp & tyre compound)

 

[v8ish]

This will happen at Silverstone (because of the long straights) so not a very good indicator really, they would be completely different say at Oulton, Cadwell.

10 deg is not the end of the world anyway, plus a laser gauge is not the best thing really.

Never tested the actual temps on any other track, new toy for silverstone

So, have you any suggestions on damper settings front/back and camber and toe on the front? What are your settings? Cheers

 

[v8ish]

A 10 deg spread on the worst tyre is absolutely fine on this sort of car.

However a 3 deg spread sounds quite suspect & casts doubt on the 10 deg.

Infra Red gauges are great for things like brake discs or radiators where you want surface temperatures, but very inaccurate for tyres where you typically want carcass temperature, hence the type with a 5mm or so probe are preferred. If you have such a luxury, looking at the tyre wear across a new set of tyres will be far more useful for gauging camber than surface temperature. Surface temp is really a very poor property to go off - it reduces too quickly in the pit box let alone when the tyre is being air cooled at 100mph!

Going stiffer will typically increase temps (the rubber tyre deforms more as the spring/damper does less) but make the wear more even across the tread (the higher roll stiffness means the camber angle changes less between a straight and a corner)

Also, tyre temp spread is useless without knowing what the outright temps are! (along with an idea of ambient temp & tyre compound)

Thanks all useful info.

Im im loathed to pay for trackdays in between each race trying numerous settings but know there isn't an fix anyone can give me in a few lines, but perhaps someone on here is getting decent results having been through the same barrier and can offer some pointers in terms of actual settings that worked for them, the more info the better. Thanks

 

[NorthloopCup]

Need to know your spring rates mate. Otherwise everything becomes speculation.

 

[182Matt]

Haha, I thought you meant is he high is a different way. My FAIL

 

[Tony Hunter]

I've got mine down to about 10 deg across the whole tyre, so happy with that.

It's cost me a fortune in testing and racing to get there though.

 

[v8ish]

I've got mine down to about 10 deg across the whole tyre, so happy with that.

It's cost me a fortune in testing and racing to get there though.

So what about actual camber settings at the front? Any pointers?

 

[STEVE.M]

So what about actual camber settings at the front? Any pointers?

This is just like a Haynes manual,tells you everything except what you :lolup:were looking for!

 

[Chip-mk1]

If doing tyre temps across the tyre you really need to datalog it as you exit the corner with multiple infrared temp sensors, otherwise all you will ever get is watered down data from the last bend before the pits.

As Steven says. Looking at wear on a new set gives a good overall indication.

 

[Tony Hunter]

This is just like a Haynes manual,tells you everything except what you :lolup:were looking for!

There is enough in formation out there or in our build threads, I'm not going over it all over again.
As I said its cost me a fortune to get this far. Wish somebody told me everything!!

 

[Cupman29]

There is enough in formation out there or in our build threads, I'm not going over it all over again.
As I said its cost me a fortune to get this far. Wish somebody told me everything!!

Thats the club spirit. lol

 

[STEVE.M]

Thats the club spirit. lol

Your voting NO tomorrow then?:clap:

 

[Tony Hunter]

Thats the club spirit. lol

You wouldn't believe the amount of pm's and emails I get asking the same questions.

As said, it's all in the build thread anyway.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If people can't be arsed to read your build thread then it's obviously not something that really
matters to them in which case you shouldn't bother replying Tony. I'm with you on that. People should appreciate you publishing it at all not moan that they are too lazy to bother looking.

 

[Tony Hunter]

If people can't be arsed to read your build thread then it's obviously not something that really
matters to them in which case you shouldn't bother replying Tony. I'm with you on that. People should appreciate you publishing it at all not moan that they are too lazy to bother looking.

You got my point.

 

[Cupman29]

If people can't be arsed to read your build thread then it's obviously not something that really
matters to them in which case you shouldn't bother replying Tony. I'm with you on that. People should appreciate you publishing it at all not moan that they are too lazy to bother looking.

You got my point.

I get your point but there is a difference between looking through a build thread and reading the Burpspeed thread of 331 pages.

There is always going to be lots of questions being asked and the way I see it is why bother answering anything to the ones you dont actually want to help. If you want to share your knowledge and experience then feel free to do so, if you dont then that is also allowed by just not posting.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you are racing a Clio I would have thought that thread is interesting from start to finish anyway. Lots of good info in it.

 

[NorthloopCup]

I get your point but there is a difference between looking through a build thread and reading the Burpspeed thread of 331 pages.

There is always going to be lots of questions being asked and the way I see it is why bother answering anything to the ones you dont actually want to help. If you want to share your knowledge and experience then feel free to do so, if you dont then that is also allowed by just not posting.

I think the main bugbear comes from the inability to use the search function mate. Settings for geo have been covered lots and I've possibly posted in the majority of them as has tony! Lol!

 

[Cupman29]

If you are racing a Clio I would have thought that thread is interesting from start to finish anyway. Lots of good info in it.

Yes, but also many pages of not so interesting stuff for what he's looking for.

Tony pointed me in the direction of his thread when I was looking for some info. Think it took me about an hour and 60 odd pages to find it. Sometimes you just don't have an hour to spare and a one liner would have done the same thing.

We are all enthusiasts and should want to help one another when we can and most of us do, particularly you Chip, but when you get a line like "wish someone told me everything" it just sounds unhelpful to the point of why say anything.

 

[Cupman29]

I think the main bugbear comes from the inability to use the search function mate. Settings for geo have been covered lots and I've possibly posted in the majority of them as has tony! Lol!

I promote the search function as much as the next person but there seems to be hostility when someone wants the easy way of obtaining info on here. No need for it IMO. If you don't want to help the person, don't. Just don't make yourself sound like victor meldrew in the process.

 

[NorthloopCup]

I promote the search function as much as the next person but there seems to be hostility when someone wants the easy way of obtaining info on here. No need for it IMO. If you don't want to help the person, don't. Just don't make yourself sound like victor meldrew in the process.

Lol @ victor meldrew! :clown: I don't have any issue with anyone wanting to take the easy route either personally and I've posted in loads of threads to point people in the right direction - it's a forum and that's what it's all about imo. I do get frustrated by the same threads being posted up though from time to time I must be honest.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I personally am very open and try to help with more or less anything I can but I fully understand that when you are competively racing like Tony and someone wants info from you then expecting them to show an interest in your car to find it isn't unreasonable.

also Tonys thread if read in full will answer questions the guy doesn't even know to ask yet I suspect too. Not many people would learn nothing from it.

 

[Cupman29]

Lol @ victor meldrew! :clown: I don't have any issue with anyone wanting to take the easy route either personally and I've posted in loads of threads to point people in the right direction - it's a forum and that's what it's all about imo. I do get frustrated by the same threads being posted up though from time to time I must be honest.

Totally agree with you mate and know you do as you've helped me out loads of times! Appreciated every time too. :cheers:

I personally am very open and try to help with more or less anything I can but I fully understand that when you are competively racing like Tony and someone wants info from you then expecting them to show an interest in your car to find it isn't unreasonable.

Again, no one could question the help you have offered to everyone and anyone on here. I don't expect Tony or anyone for that matter to help, but if they are taking the time to read the persons question and then post something, they'd be as well making it helpful or just not bother.

So anyway, back on topic. What did tou say you geo setup is Tony? Lol

 

[Martin.]

There are also a lot of s**tty dead end threads out there which making searching a bit more difficult though.

I've been through pages and pages trying to find something before and just given up because I was trawling through so much 'Gary'

Maybe I need to be a moderator and help clean the forum up lol!