90’s WRC Monte Carlo - proper.

[NorthloopCup]

Just found this whilst perusing YouTube! Proper rally cars and none of this wide arch big wing b****cks that you see in the WRC now.



Proper.

 

[Clio_fool]

Is that an Escort Cosworth I see? Big wing and all??? Grreat vid though.

 

[Twingo 1??]

Certainly back in more interesting days. As anything above r4 looks nothing like its road going version. I couldn't imagine rallying back then though with spectators standing that close its bad enough when you get the odd idiot.
I think the UK is starting to get there now closed road events are going again all round the uk. Just need some go the class structures looking at to accommodate more modern small turbo engined cars.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

People always go on about Group B but god the crowd control was still poor during the Group A era, especially given that, by this time, the cars were every bit as fast. It was a great time though. Better than Group B in my view. Lots of manufacturers, lots of great drivers, and cars that looked like their showroom equivalents. They were chucking out proper power then too, before the 34mm restrictor pegged them back.

I actually quite like the current cars, though I was a big sceptic at first. They are great to watch, especially in person. It's a shame we can't have something like Group A again though. Given how many 4WD performance cars out there, you'd think it would be possible. The problem with the new cars is that the suspension, tyres and aero are now so good that, even with 380bhp, they still have loads of grip.

Certainly back in more interesting days. As anything above r4 looks nothing like its road going version. I couldn't imagine rallying back then though with spectators standing that close its bad enough when you get the odd idiot.
I think the UK is starting to get there now closed road events are going again all round the uk. Just need some go the class structures looking at to accommodate more modern small turbo engined cars.

Yeah I think some things are on the up. The closed-road things is making a positive difference. Like you say, we just need to tweak the classes to stop the old NA cars being so dominant. I'm already planning my next car and it will be modern and turbocharged.

 

[McGherkin]

Having watched the modern cars and group Bs back to back, I’d take the modern cars every time. They are just so slow in comparison. Even WRC2, which is like the modern group A, doesn’t come close to the sheer pace the aero cars have. I definitely think people will look back at this as the ‘Aero era’ in much the same way we look back at Group B.

However, the 90s were definitely getting towards the end of the heyday of rallying. The amounts of money being invested by big manufacturers was still huge and the cars were still primitive enough that you had to throw them about to get them to go where you wanted them to go. Spectator numbers were bigger back then too.

If you’re not already, follow The Gravel Crew on facebook. Guy posts some great stuff about 90’s and 00’s rallying.

 

[JB21]

Group B all the way! No aero, no aids, no trick flappy paddles, just man and machinery in (utterly bonkers) harmony. Yeah they might not be as fast as the modern day cars but who cares with how they sounded!

 

[McGherkin]

TBH in reality it’s more like man struggling with hideously overpowered, underbraked and mostly uncontrollable machine in order to get it round a stage slower than a fiesta.

 

[JB21]

TBH in reality it’s more like man struggling with hideously overpowered, underbraked and mostly uncontrollable machine in order to get it round a stage slower than a fiesta.

So a lot more talent needed making it a 10 times more exciting as death is a likely scenario!

I grew up in this era with my old man owning an intergale HF, RS200 and Audi quattro so I'm probably bias

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Group B cars were covered in aero. It was just s**t compared to modern stuff ?

I agree with @McGherkin, I think people are going to look back on this era with great fondness. The cars are wilder than they've been for a long time and the competition is tighter than a mouse's ear. We should think ourselves very lucky in reality. The biggest problem rallying suffers from (probably more than any other form of motorsport) is rose-tinted spectacles. It's obsessed with the past. While Group B and Group A were undoubtedly great eras, we need to spend a bit more time looking forward in reality.

 

[R3k1355]

I think the interest in Rally started to wane as Homologation rules were relaxed and the cars became less and less related to their production counterparts.

People genuinely got a thrill that they could wonder down to the local car showroom and drive off in something similar to what they've seen blasting around the Forest.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I think the interest in Rally started to wane as Homologation rules were relaxed and the cars became less and less related to their production counterparts.

People genuinely got a thrill that they could wonder down to the local car showroom and drive off in something similar to what they've seen blasting around the Forest.

I think there is some truth in that, but you could argue the same about BTCC and that's doing pretty well these days.

The poor media coverage is one of the biggest problems. The All Live coverage they offer is great, but they shouldn't have charged for it, not initially at least.

 

[R3k1355]

Yea but like rallying, BTCC was absolutely massive in the late 90's.

Every council scumbag with a Mondeo thought they were Alain Menu

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Yea but like rallying, BTCC was absolutely massive in the late 90's.

Every council scumbag with a Mondeo thought they were Alain Menu

Totally, but it's proven that recovery is possible, without homologated/showroom-looking cars. Rallying seems to be struggling with that, which is where I think the media/PR issues come in.

 

[Mr Burns]

People claim the 90's BTCC used to be better too but it wasn't really. The racing wasn't as close, the cars weren't as reliable and the coverage was poor. The 80's BTCC was even worse!

 

[cat171]

People claim the 90's BTCC used to be better too but it wasn't really. The racing wasn't as close, the cars weren't as reliable and the coverage was poor. The 80's BTCC was even worse!

Bro, you are joking right ?? Cleland would be door handle to door handle in his Cavalier!!!! And back in the 80's Rouse, Soper, Harvey & co were PROPERLY on it!!

 

[cat171]

An example, from the '90's

 

[stu8v]

It's all about the homolagation specials for me.

Its not about the outright speed its purely about man vs machine and the spectacle.

2 time Integrale owner here

 

[cat171]

'80's - HEROIC!!! This is what is was all about!!! The cars here are still the absolute b****cks even today!

 

[Mr Burns]

Bro, you are joking right ?? Cleland would be door handle to door handle in his Cavalier!!!! And back in the 80's Rouse, Soper, Harvey & co were PROPERLY on it!!

That wasn't every race though. These days the grid is even closer, and qualifying for example... The whole grid are separated by just over a second.

 

[cat171]

I used to watch it every time it was in, yep like it all the time. They drove them like they were on a joy ride & the rivalries were crazy. I still get a buzz every time I watch a video back on YT.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

People claim the 90's BTCC used to be better too but it wasn't really. The racing wasn't as close, the cars weren't as reliable and the coverage was poor. The 80's BTCC was even worse!

The coverage is a tough one. The ITV4 coverage is good but, the problem is, it's on ITV4. The BTCC used to be on Grandstand on the BBC, so it was much more prominent. The multitude of TV channels has made it more challenging in a way. There is more opportunity for motorsport to be on TV, but so much choice for viewers that it's easy to miss it.

That wasn't every race though. These days the grid is even closer, and qualifying for example... The whole grid are separated by just over a second.

That's because they're all driving the same car essentially ?

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Anyway, this thread shouldn't be about driving round in circles, it's about proper motorsport

 

[adamlstr]

Group A was the greatest for me, road ready homologation specials available for 30k OTR. You can't buy anything close to what's on the stages, these days. Everything is a compromise to give as many toys as you can get for your monthly payment.

As an ~8 year old, watching WRC with the old man then getting chucked in the passenger seat of his Escort Cosworth are memories I'll carry forever. Similarly when I turned 13-ish and he had one of the first Evo 6's off the boat. I only really had one vehicular path after that.

Very much rose tinted spectacles for 90's motorsport, but who cares.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Group A was the greatest for me, road ready homologation specials available for 30k OTR. You can't buy anything close to what's on the stages, these days. Everything is a compromise to give as many toys as you can get for your monthly payment.

As an ~8 year old, watching WRC with the old man then getting chucked in the passenger seat of his Escort Cosworth are memories I'll carry forever. Similarly when I turned 13-ish and he had one of the first Evo 6's off the boat. I only really had one vehicular path after that.

Very much rose tinted spectacles for 90's motorsport, but who cares.

I think your car choice gives you away ?

 

[adamlstr]

Meh, the newest car I've owned is from 2004.

 

[Kermit the Van]

As an old git who was lucky enough to be peppered with gravel from the likes of Vatanen, Toivonen, Mikkola, Alen, Blomqvuist etc, I’m not a massive fan of modern WRC.

Yes, undoubtedly the modern stuff is so much quicker, but it all just seems a bit soulless. Maybe that is rose tinted glasses, but for me, Vatanen in a Mk2 Escort with it’s screaming BDA, Alen flying a 037 over the yumps on the 1000 Lakes, Toivonen being, well, Henri in his usual flat out style, or Pond storming to 3rd in the awesome sounding 6R4 in the 85 RAC. These are memories that shaped my childhood.

Does this mean that pre Group B, Group B and early 90’s Group A is better or worse than today’s stuff ? I’m sure my opinion is going to be wildly different to that of a 13yr kid of today who buys Autosport every Thursday just like I used to. Different strokes for different folks.

I haven’t watched any BTCC for a while. Mind you, I’m still trying to catch up on several seasons V8 Supercars and V8 Utes, so I cant comment on what is better and what is worse. However, for closeness of racing, those few seasons in the early 2.0 n/a class would be hard to beat, (and that’s coming from a fan of the old Capris, Rovers and Sierras).

In summary, I don’t know. I’m typing this whilst having a conversation with a half-wit at Aviva insurance, so I’ve lost track of whatever point it was I was trying to make.

 

[R3k1355]

I think the media/PR issues come in.

Certainly in the early 2000's the WRC got boring as f**k, Leob won the thing 9 years on the trot and most of the constructors pulled out because no-one was interested anymore.
By 2009 it was down to just two constructors, a shadow of previous seasons, it was pathetic.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

As I say to everyone who criticises the modern WRC; go and stand in a dark forest in Wales later this year, listen to the cars coming at you from miles away, see the speed they carry, the way they change direction, the way they accelerate and the commitment from the top drivers, then come back and tell me that it isn't what it used to be.

I took a couple of guys who aren't really interested in WRC a couple of years ago and now THEY are suggesting that we need to go to one of the overseas rounds. The spectacle is definitely still there for those who want to see it. The WRC is just a sport haunted by its past sadly. As someone who is closely involved in the sport, if I never saw another MK2 Escort again, I honestly wouldn't give a toss. Our obsession with past glories is strangling us.

Certainly in the early 2000's the WRC got boring as f**k, Leob won the thing 9 years on the trot and most of the constructors pulled out because no-one was interested anymore.
By 2009 it was down to just two constructors, a shadow of previous seasons, it was pathetic.

Yeah, dominance from a single team can really be problematic.

 

[Twingo 1??]

I'm already planning my next car and it will be modern and turbocharged.

I have a good idea what your planning from your conversation on the brf. I could always turbo the twingo ? (if it ever gets finished)

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I have a good idea what your planning from your conversation on the brf. I could always turbo the twingo ? (if it ever gets finished)

Haha yeah. It's a not very secret secret ?

I have considered some other options to be honest, but keep coming back round to the Fezbomb. It just ticks the most boxes. I think, with what I have in mind, it could be a pretty potent (and visually appealing) car for not that much money.

 

[Twingo 1??]

Haha yeah. It's a not very secret secret ?

I have considered some other options to be honest, but keep coming back round to the Fezbomb. It just ticks the most boxes. I think, with what I have in mind, it could be a pretty potent (and visually appealing) car for not that much money.

Yeah they look like good fun and definitely plenty of them around.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Yeah they look like good fun and definitely plenty of them around.

Yeah very much so. The challenge is finding a cheap one, as I really can't justify spending £6k+ on a base car. Need to find a slightly rough one that's been repaired, which is a challenge.

I considered a DS3 THP or a 208 GTI (partly because you can source R5 replica panels fairly cheaply ?), but the strength of the engine worries me, while the ST lump is pretty bombproof. More out there for the ST too.

 

[Clio_fool]

I remember watching the rac rally every Xmas time with my dad, we never missed a minute of it on the TV and I loved the Integrale. I can't explain how giddy I was to be driving my own Integrale home. Homologation made motorsport a lot more real for people and that's something that's definatly had an impact.

 

[PhillipM]

For all you old school and group B fans - the nice way to make modern cars struggle with grip is to put them on knobbly off-road tyres. Then you can have spaceframed, 4wd, 400bhp cars that sound great and are still as squirrelly as f**k:

 

[Twingo 1??]

I remember watching the rac rally every Xmas time with my dad, we never missed a minute of it on the TV and I loved the Integrale. I can't explain how giddy I was to be driving my own Integrale home. Homologation made motorsport a lot more real for people and that's something that's definatly had an impact.

Yeah 6k is a lot of money for a base car.
A colt czt could be fun or a Punto with the 1400 t jet. I am not even 3k into the twingo yet so it's very much a budget build!

 

[brisa4984]

adore the 90s WRC days..

Its such a shame.

 

[McGherkin]

As an old git who was lucky enough to be peppered with gravel from the likes of Vatanen, Toivonen, Mikkola, Alen, Blomqvuist etc, I’m not a massive fan of modern WRC.

Yes, undoubtedly the modern stuff is so much quicker, but it all just seems a bit soulless. Maybe that is rose tinted glasses, but for me, Vatanen in a Mk2 Escort with it’s screaming BDA, Alen flying a 037 over the yumps on the 1000 Lakes, Toivonen being, well, Henri in his usual flat out style, or Pond storming to 3rd in the awesome sounding 6R4 in the 85 RAC. These are memories that shaped my childhood.

Silly question, but have you spectated a post-2017 WRC round?

 

[Kermit the Van]

Silly question, but have you spectated a post-2017 WRC round?

That’s not a silly question at all.

No I haven’t. The last time I spent a weekend following the RAC, sorry, Rally Wales, sorry, the Rally GB that doesn’t leave Wales, was back in about 2003 / 2004.

I watched the modern stuff on TV / YouTube, and I can’t put my finger on the precise reason why, it just does nothing for me. Too sterile perhaps ?

On a similar note, I haven’t watched a single lap of a F1 GP since the end of 2017, and that’s after watching every race of every season since 1982. However, I think that’s more to do with the sacrilege of ‘Halo’ and my dislike for the two drivers who are most likely to win, (Hamilton and Vettal).

Maybe I’m just getting old ? Maybe my priorities lies elsewhere these days ? Perhaps I only yearn for the cars and the drivers (hero’s) of my youth, and anything else just doesn’t cut the mustard ?

On saying that though, I still enjoy NASCAR and V8 Supercars, so maybe there is more to it than rose tinted specs ?

 

[Ian_182]

I remember the escort cosworth days and used to love the homologation cars you could buy off the shelf.
I also remember the Audi A4 BTCC domination back in the 90's
Great times.
Im also not a fan of the latest stuff. it just looks too clinical the way the cars change direction so precisely and I was fond of the old school under steering drifting style
I guess times just move on but the earlier stuff is more relevant to me.

 

[stu8v]

I love rallycross, a shame the fia killed it just as it was getting popular!

The cars are completely insane and the racing is close and intense.