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a ’ram air’ test.. what happens if...





This was posted in the ik thread but I think it deserves one of its own.

A small question to ponder...

What do you propose will happen if we do the following ??

get a simple funnel, connect it to a piece of platic tube, say about 1 meter long ?

at the other end of the tube, put a baloon over the pipe and secure with elastic bands or similar.

Now, drive along and let your passenger hold the funnel out of the window into the clear airstream to act as a ram - air scoop.

What happens at, say, 40 mph, 100 mph, 120 mph etc ?.

Simple question, does the balloon inflate ???



Joe
 

Tom

ClioSport Club Member
  EV (s)


nope thats not how it works in cars the engine is sucking air too + that with ram air effect and you get xtra bhp (in theory) the baloon would just flap about it may inflate at say 80-85mph but i doubt it

why dont you try it?
 


Nah - it wouldnt inflate coz its not the speed of the air going into the balloon its the pressure - imagine blowing up a balloon A:through a narrow 5mm tube and B: through the end of a funnel - A wins coz the pressure is greater!

We need Venturi effect for NA engines induction?
 


to reduce effort you need to increase pressure. sucking is merely a high pressure in relation to a low pressure.. its the pressure differential that causes gas movement., so YEP, that is how it work in cars as you say Tom..

So, your answer seems to be yes, at about 80-85 mph...

So, now add a far larger scoop... - say a funnel 3 times the size ??.. what speed does it inflate at now ??

How about 1 funnel as above on each side of the car - or roof, or anywhere - feed them to a t piece and into the baloon again ??.. what speed does it inflate now ??.. as surely there is more surface area for the air to be rammed into leading to a higher pressure ?.

Joe. :D
 


Hi Cupsize ! :)

ok, so we use a 5mm feed from the funnel via a reducer ??. there ya go.. at what speed does it inflate now ??:) - or even add a 10mm to 5 mm back to 10mm restrictor to act as a venturi... ??.. how we doing now ? lol.

Joe
 


It wouldnt inflate at all..

the only reason a balloon inflates when blowing it up is because ur mouth is creating a seal around it and creating the pressure, hence cheeks almost explode!



And as that has fek all to do with the induction process! im off down the gym! :D

/me wonders off
 


Hi James :)

So, thats interesting, A baloon only inflates due to a pressure differential, I can live with that...;)

If a pressure differential is needed to cause a gas flow - either into the engine cylinders or into the baloon, then what we are talking here is simply the VALUE of that differential... seems fair to me lol..

If the baloon is filled with gas / air, then why doesnt it continue to expand - or is that also the differntial pressure between the inner gas / outer gas and strength/ elasticity of the mebrane ?

Woohoo ! - I think we are getting somewhere !... gas movement is caused by pressure differentials, and, stability of movement within differing pressures is caused by interference from another source (ie the baloon material)

yes ??

Joe..;)
 

Tom

ClioSport Club Member
  EV (s)


no the baloon needs greater pressure than that to inflate. the pressure in the example you use would be changing constantly due to air flow changes before the funnel you need a flow meter in front of the baloon between the funnel and the baloon to measure the flow
 


Hi Tom, mostly, apart from the airflow changing.. lets presume that the funnel is held well into clear air...

Also, a flow meter would show no movement as the gas is not moving due to a resistence (the baloon skin). The pressure that can be achieved is then directly proportional to the mass of the air in the pipe and the forward speed of the mouth (Surface area) of the funnel ??.

Joe.
 
  Lionel Richie


I dont think it would inflate, cos the air can escape back down the funnel cos theres nothing to stop it. Your mouth stops the air escaping out the end of the baloon when you blow it up. The baloon would take shape though, as if youve just started to blow it up if you get what i mean???
 


Yes, absolutely..

to make any gas flow from one direction to the other we need a differential of pressure.

to know the gain to an engine we need to know the amount the pressure differential has increased. without a difference of pressure there is no flow, and, flow stops when the pressure differential equalises.

so, any benefit to an N/A engine is going to be caused by, and proprtional to, an increase in pressure. Which is itself directly proportional (in this instance) to the compressability of the air molecules.

If we can quantify this pressure then we can quantify a gain.

but, the resistance of air - or its compressability, is being overestimated by the guys who think an increase occurs. Without a compressive effect, there is NO increase in pressure (Basic gas laws)

Aerodynamic forces also depend in a complex way on the compressibility of the air. As an object moves through the air, the air molecules move around the object (outer and inner). If the object passes at a low speed (typically less than 200 mph) the density of the fluid will remain constant. But for high speeds, some of the energy of the object goes into compressing the fluid and changing the density, which will alter the amount of resulting force on the object.

In other words, the amount of compression is so negligable as to be immaterial until (for a car !) a high speed is achieved.

So, to be certain there is no measurable benefit on a road car all we need to do is measure the pressure increase occuring. If its hardly registering, its doing nothing positive for us.

Also, we then come to the problem of the pulse progression in the inlet system as a whole (this is the good bit lol !).

as a column of air is used by the engine a large vacuum (Differential) occurs and this is used to cause the atmospheric air to re-fill the column ready for the next charge load. As this charge fills, the pressures equalise again and flow stops momentarily. The only pressure increase again can be from the compressability of air at the intake mouth. The pressure differential caused by the vacuum is great (orders of Magnitude greater than any compressability of the air at the mouth or scoop or whatever)

As forward speed increase to around the 200 mph mark the density of the air can be increased by the ram effect in the scoop.

Below that we are simply platting sawdust !. :)

again, a simple measurement of the pressure with a monometer (a few quid to make) is all that it needs to show this in action.

and, we havnt even considered the effect of non constant airflow at the scoop mouth to a foward facing airflow and the effects on the linearity of the airflow (how stable and repeatable it is)

Joe.
 


You can view this argument purely from a Fluid Mechanics point of view.

To inflate the balloon in the above (ridiculous manner) the velocity head created by the airflow must produce forces sufficient to overcome the internal forces due to the elasticity of the balloon.

From Bernoullis equation the velocity head is = 0.5*density*velocity^2.

You must take into account the initial internal surface area of the balloon as well as its stretching properties.

p.s. Is there a point to this thread?
 


there is another little gem called adiabatic effect, where, temperature increases in proportion to pressure (and visa versa), also, density is related to pressure (the cold air principle !) cold - more dese - warmer - less dense.

So, if a pressure increase occurs, so does a change in temp, hence density... the air occupies a larger space meaning less oxygen per cc inhaled.

If you measured an increase of 0.1 psi then you would have a corresponding increase in temp and decrease in density also working against you.
 


Black Cat, :), yes, there is a point... ram air does not work on a road car such as a clio.....

The point is to show that the pressures that many think will occur simply.. err... dont... and, a simple way of measuring the effect is given for those who want to ascertain the facts.

Joe.
 
  Trophy


Joe,

I dont think the ram-pipe is actually designed to increase pressure!

I thought it was just to route cold air to the filter?



Mat.
 


Ahha. the old PV = nRT argument, like it!

Adiabatic effects only tends to occur with rapid high compression. Usually much greater than a simple funnel can manage.

We also cant ignore the Psychrometric effects of the moisture in the airstream.
 


lol, I was referring to an induction system being compressed by an outside force.. not specifically the funnel ! :devilish:

Also, dont forget the bifurcating throggat retaining sprocket. !

It would be an interesting (for me !) thing for you to calculate the pressure increase on a 3" column containing air (closed for this example) at various forward speeds. Your math and obvious understanding of fluid dynamics would be extremley useful.

Joe.:)
 


The following website has some good insights into Ram Air.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~zx11/uk3.htmhttp://www.xs4all.nl/~zx11/uk3.htm

I agree completely, to actually get a ram air effect that will have a positive effect on performance you would require a nice big air intake. However locating this intake in a postiion that wont completely ruin a cars drag coefficient is almost impossible, and likely as not any benefits that may be gained will be cancelled b the bad aerodynamics.
 


Hi Mat !

cold air is usually good air :D - I have no problem with what you are saying at all.

Its just that some people seem to think that a compression by forward motion occurs leading to a forced induction.. it doesnt (at the speeds we can achieve realistically)

Joe.
 
  2005 Audi A3 3.2 Quattro


Captain Slarty.

Ive been pondering with this idea for a few days now, since this whole Ram Air Scoop discussion started.

What would happen if one connected a Cylinder* of Nitrox** to your engine just behind the airbox by means of a sealed pipe.

Now when needed in racing or 1/4 mile applications, the cylinder could be opened and the contents fed via the air box into the engine. Would the increase in oxygen content give a similar but no where near as dramatic result, similar to running a Nitrous Oxide setup?

Probably a stupid idea but I am just wondering what would happen...nothing or would a result be gained? (couple of bhp perhaps). Seems to be a good idea of getting cold (due to the rapid expansion of the escaping gas) pressurised air in to your engine.

* This cylinder would store about 15 litres of nitrox at a pressure of 300bar which would give a total volume of 4500 litres of gas

** The Nitrox Im talking about here is a mixture of gaseous Oxygen and Nitrogen where the percentage of oxygen is greater than 21%, usually in the range of 34-36% but up to 51% (100% pure O2 is not considered to its extreme volitility in this application...ie...explostions). Scuba divers will know what Im on about here
 


A much greater benefit to performance is the careful location and routing of the intake pipes. The use of smooth piping with as few bends as physically possible would significantly affect mass flow.

I inquired with k & N concerning their Typhoon induction kit for that precise reason, but apparently there are no plans to import them to the UK or to produce kits for European cars.

Im thinking of modelling the 172 engine with the Ricardo WAVE fluid dynamics package. It was this software package that Renault used to originally design the intake system and cam phasing so Im sure there are some performance tweaks that can be assessed using such a model.
 

Tom

ClioSport Club Member
  EV (s)


what about a flux capacitor? wouldnt that help by making the car able to get somwhere before it left?- just a thought

sorry to be mr pain from painland but what is the point of this thread?
 
  Trophy


Joe,

Thats cool then! Cos i love my induction noise but am thinking of changing to the Hillpower one as this has a cold air feed pipe and semi-shielding against engine heat.



Mat.
 


Now THAT would be interesting... BK .. let me know how you get on. !

Viceroy m8, hi. basic answer,, I dunno lol !!.. I am not familiar with that mix.. (I did 6 years of scuba too) I never dived deeper than 50 meters. I was under the impression that they used helium as a substitute to avoid nitrogen narcosis ??.

If this mix was injected, and fuel added, then one would presume it would actually work (as It is more or less conventional air mix with a higher O2 concentration) I think the availability would be a limiting factor though.

How about Entonox lol... (Nitrous Oxide AND oygen 50-50 mix...) .. I will watch from a safe bunker... :D
 

Tom

ClioSport Club Member
  EV (s)


my 1.216v(dont laugh) has the new k-tech induction pipe system/kit

im gonna put the filter in a box in the bumper and remove the foglight on one side will this work?
 


so basically if you look at the theory over the balloon needing a seal over it to create the pressure and air to inflate the balloon.. you can then see that the only way to get a nice boost it to use a Turbo?



ill go to sleep now, as that was probably totally irrelivant to the equasion :oops:
 
  2005 Audi A3 3.2 Quattro


Hmmm, I suppose I could always try it one day.

Yep they do add Helium to the mix once they start doing dives deeper than 56m (this is the limit where oxygen toxicity becomes an issue, and also to help curb the Narcs)

For shallower depths (not more than 30m) Nitrox is used to reduce chances of the bends and to allow for a longer dive time.

Well thanks for your reply.:)
 


lol all.. (and Thanks Viceroy, I wasnt aware of the nitrox when I was diving)

BK, that looks like a nice tb conversion !

220 BHP is reasonable... vewwwwwwwwy reasonable..

hmmmmmm.. nice. !
 


Cool thread,

I know having a the standard air box more free flowing will help the response and possible performance of a turbo car, now what I was interested in was is there much point of a ram-air system in a turbo car?. Just thinking that the standard induction system would proberly be a compromise (spelling) for off (low down torque) and on boost times. What do you lot think?.

Cheers,

Chun.
 


No Chun, (and HI M8 !).

Once you start forcing induction it sort of becomes a bit blurred lol !

make sure the inlet to the turbo is a decent size with a good cold air supply. Use a free flowing intercooler (use the homemade manometer in differential mode (one to each side of the IC) to measure drop, try to get the minimum drop by selecting a well designed and free flowing IC. (Often the biggest hit on performance)

Avoid sharp bends etc.

It will be fine

Joe.
 


Just been looking at the induction system to my Turbo coupe. I wasnt planning on changing the intercooler yet :D. Its reasonable big but only about 30% is exposed to air flow. Not much space for a front mount if any. Theres a kit on the market to take standard power to 235Bhp, its only serie program change. Before I go for that (no money :D), I was thinking maybe making the standard airbox more free flowing and giving it more cold air hopping it would improve performance a little?. Just that therea one small diameter pipe feeding the air box atm. The 172 airbox proberly had bigger diameter pipes feeding it :D. Is there a reason for the small size in that pipe?.

Cheers,

Chun.
 


not usually on a turbo, no. Restrictions to inlet air are just as bad for spin up hence lag, as restriction in the compressed side, however, the restrictions in the compressed circuit will cause a far more agressive ramp of backpressure. *I would be very surprised if the manufacturer sized the inlet incorrectly * though. *However, because of the following - even changing to a slightly larger pipe can have a dramatic increae in flow potential*

If I remember correctly (Black Cat ??) then increasing the diameter of a tube by a factor of 2 causes an increase in flow of 1600 % (air ??) (from memory so maybe out on that. !)

so, a slight increase in the size of the induction pipe can lead to MAJOR flow increases. (However, we often underestimate the flow capabilites of a small looking pipe)

Turbulence at high flow caused by obstruction or direction change is probably the limiting factor.

Joe
 


Gonna buy a spare air box and look into messing around with it:D. Ill have a better look tommorow to see what can be done :).

Cheers,

Chun.
 


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