Advice after 1st track day in the clio

[ph1ls1]

Hi All,

I posted a few weeks ago after buying a 172 for some advice on what to do with my Clio which was really helpful.

I decided to hold off changing things before i tried it on a track. The exhaust fell off a week or so ago so I put on a silenced decat and the rest of the system and i renewed the brake fluid but other than that completely stock. tyres are yokohama somethings which were ok, just what was on it when i got it, i can get another day out of them so i will change them for something sticky when i need a new set and do the suspension at the same time, prob some 888s.

I did Brands this evening and I can see the car has potential but desperately need the brakes doing before i do anything else. 2 laps and they're gone on the standard pads and discs (which were only just replaced by renault before i bought the car).
Other than the brakes, the suspension needs to be upgraded and bushes are a bit worn so need doing too.

So, before i do Donnington this Friday I think I'm going to buy the bits below, just hope i can get it quick enough so i can get it all on!

KTR Track Extreme brake kit with RC5+ pads
Braided lines
Millers oils racing fluid
Front wishbone and antiroll bar bush kit
Clutch cable - its a bit squeaky and getting stiff

What are your thoughts on the above? Or alternative suggestions?

Once I've got it stopping properly i'll sort the handling but power wise its good enough as it is.

Also Ktec have a few kits, what have you guys got on yours for track use? I don't want it too stiff as i use it as a backup car on the road, but its far too wallowy on track as it is at the moment. I'm thinking the Spax RSX kit would be right, plus it doesn't lower it too much which is a plus for me. I think the race spec kit would be just too stiff on the road but not sure if the RSX is stiff enough?

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

2 laps of Brands and you've cooked the brakes !?

I've done full days at Bedford on Pagid OEM spec pads/discs and not had an issue. Do you even need brakes at Brands ? Are you sure it wasn't the tyres giving up assuming they're road orientated rather than track..?

Avoid Spax like the plauge. Search on here / tinternet .. they're waff. Get some BC Racing coilovers from MicKPM - IMO.

I've had Spax on both my cars (impreza / Clio) and they're awful. Got BCs on both now and done a few track days in the Clio with them. Absolutely superb.

 

[MarkX]

I'd pass on the ktech brakes and contact G172 on here, brembo hc discs and ds2500 pads are more than up to the job and will save you a fortune, I got them, Hel lines and SRF fluid. I also fitted new cup dampers all round and new front wishbones, pretty cheap from Wolverhampton renault on here.
Decent tyres will make a huge difference too.

 

[mark smith87]

I've been doing track days in my 172 for the last six years. I use DS2500 pads all round, Brembo HC front discs, DOT5.1 fluid and braided lines. Just replaced the rear dampers with Koni Sport adjustable instead of standard Renault stuff. Standard springs all round. Toyo R1-R tyres.
K Tec engine mountings and Powerflex dog bone bush. Scorpion cat back stainless exhaust. Standard 172 air box with green cotton performance air filter element. RS tuning remap. Standard 172 engine that now has 148,000 miles on it and still goes like the proverbial. Done 24 track days and never had to touch the car other than regular servicing. About to do another day at Oulton on 23rd Sept.
I use it as my road car as well so it's still got full trim and Aircon. Its a brilliant car both on the road and on track

 

[Chip-mk1]

As above I would avoid spax, good to see its brakes and suspension you are looking to upgrade as power mods are few and limited in results on these cars, lol.

Bilstein B14 are a great compromise between road and track, I would get them if I were you.

 

[ph1ls1]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback. Unfortunately yea definitely the brakes, back into the pits and they were pretty smoky! Im a retired racer and still pretty quick driver tho and can push it very hard, the extra speed i can carry out a corner needs to be scrubbed off and need to brake late and hard into druids to pick up the rear a bit to point it through the corner the way i want it, being a short track theres not time or enough airflow to cool the brakes much between corners.

Sounds like the Brembo HC and DS2500s are the way to go, i spoke to a guy in a 182 briefly who was running the Brembo HC discs and some Mintex 1155 pads, along with some better fluid i think that should do the trick by the sounds of it.

Interesting to hear about the Spax, Ktec were adamant that they are the best ones for the car, but I've read a lot on here this evening that makes me dismiss that recommendation.

Mark s - sounds more like what i want from my car, although i think for me it does want to be a bit stiffer, its definatley more of a track car for me. I forgot i have done the engine mounts too including the lower power flex bushes, so if i can just get the brakes working right and get some confidence in them then i can start pushing it properly and see what needs doing next.

 

[Chip-mk1]

When Ktec say "best for the car" they mean "biggest margin for us" I suspect

Keep Taking Everyones Cash


The only thing I personally would buy from KTEC is shares in their company, they seem to be a lot better at making money than making clios.

 

[deksport]

Brembo Hc discs /RC5plus pads from k tech got a good deal / Goodrich brake lines , dot 5 / white line anti roll bar on the rear / cooksport springs / Yoko D08s tyres I love it , use it for track days and daily driver

 

[ph1ls1]

Haha, yea i thought that. It is easy to get everything in one place assuming they are the right parts of course, but I've only posted a few times here and found everyones advice extremely helpful and saving me a fair bit of cash already!

A message here seems to be the best thing before i part with any cash!

 

[Cub.]

Hi, as mentioned above, I'd go with decent fluid, Brembo HC and a decent pad (RC5 or Ferodo DS2500 / DS3000). G 172 is the best person to speak to.

 

[Dan@Greenlight]

I have read that he also has very quick delivery time so you will probs get them in time for Friday.

 

[Dan@SJM]

I wouldn't advise 2500's for a track car. They can't cope with the heat IMO. I cooked Vikki's 2500's at Combe in a 15minute session. 3000's atleast.

I'm also able to supply carbone Lorraine pads at very competitive prices

 

[Chip-mk1]

I wouldn't advise 2500's for a track car. They can't cope with the heat IMO. I cooked Vikki's 2500's at Combe in a 15minute session. 3000's atleast.

I'm also able to supply carbone Lorraine pads at very competitive prices

I have to agree with this, we used to use DS2500 on track and if you really start hero'ing it (like an ex racer is no doubt going to) they get too hot.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Also, I wouldn't advise Polybushes. Standard items are more than upto the job, they're getting over 10 years old now, new OEM items, and it'll feel epic.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Also, I wouldn't advise Polybushes. Standard items are more than upto the job, they're getting over 10 years old now, new OEM items, and it'll feel epic.

Added bonus if he buys those is that if its an early car, he can order ones with the later spec increased caster fitment too

 

[ph1ls1]

Its a 2003, is that an early one?

Where would i be best getting the OEM bushes from? Ktec only seem to have the poly ones, so is it gonna be a main stealer job?

Spoken to George and he can get the brakes to me so i can have them fitted by Friday, I decided on the Brembo Max HC discs plus DS3000 pads. I was tempted but the DS1.11 pads but I'll try the 3000's first and try removing the fogs and liners too and hopefully that will do the job. No doubt it will be fine with the tyres on it now, but if i go for something stickier I might have to improve the pads again?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Stop looking on ktec's site mate, seriously, they are horrendously expensive, most things are available cheaper from Adam@Renault wolverhampton than they are from ktec.

2003 is changover year so you could have either early or late spec arms, you will need to look at the bottom balljoint spacing to work it out.

 

[Fletcher]

Brembo HC discs, and DS3000 is a good brake set-up. I am currently running HC discs and Carbon Lorraine RC6 pads excellent stopping power when hot and they also work well when cold.

 

[George@RTR_Parts]

contact G172 on here

Hi, as mentioned above, I'd go with decent fluid, Brembo HC and a decent pad (RC5 or Ferodo DS2500 / DS3000). G 172 is the best person to speak to.

I have read that he also has very quick delivery time so you will probs get them in time for Friday.

Cheers lads!

Spoken to George and he can get the brakes to me so i can have them fitted by Friday, I decided on the Brembo Max HC discs plus DS3000 pads. I was tempted but the DS1.11 pads but I'll try the 3000's first and try removing the fogs and liners too and hopefully that will do the job. No doubt it will be fine with the tyres on it now, but if i go for something stickier I might have to improve the pads again?

I'll get you sorted brakes wise so you're all set for Donnington on Friday Phil!

 

[CIW]

and try removing the fogs and liners too and hopefully that will do the job.

I have a lightly modified (KTEC coilovers, stripped interior, rear ARB) Phase 1 172 ('99 so the version before your car). I also am a regular at Brands as I'm local and it's a track only car (though still road legal).

I struggled with brake temps the first couple of times out, and that was even with new Brembo discs, DS2500's and braided brake lines. Last week I went back to do a full day on the GP circuit after removing the fogs and arch liners and had no problems (though I suspect the GP circuit is actually kinder on the brakes than the Indy circuit). This was also running 888's for the first time and pushing pretty hard by the end of the day.

I also had a track geo by Boss Racing in Fawkham which I'd strongly recommend, car finally is finally approaching a neutral balance, previously I just found it too unwilling to turn in (the 888's probably helped with this too).

 

[ph1ls1]

I have a lightly modified (KTEC coilovers, stripped interior, rear ARB) Phase 1 172 ('99 so the version before your car). I also am a regular at Brands as I'm local and it's a track only car (though still road legal).

I struggled with brake temps the first couple of times out, and that was even with new Brembo discs, DS2500's and braided brake lines. Last week I went back to do a full day on the GP circuit after removing the fogs and arch liners and had no problems (though I suspect the GP circuit is actually kinder on the brakes than the Indy circuit). This was also running 888's for the first time and pushing pretty hard by the end of the day.

I also had a track geo by Boss Racing in Fawkham which I'd strongly recommend, car finally is finally approaching a neutral balance, previously I just found it too unwilling to turn in (the 888's probably helped with this too).

Sounds interesting, Im not far from Brands myself, prob do another day there in a 2 or 3 weeks when i have the next lot of stuff bolted on. I've actually decided to go for the DS1.11s now after talking to George so will see if thats much better, but when the brake kit on (tomorrow hopefully) i will look at doing the liners and fogs, but as was pointed out to me by an engineer removing the fogs without the ducting will have other aerodynamic effects, so may keep that in reserve if i find i need it.

thanks for the tip on Boss Racing, i may run it up there once i have the new kit on it so its all setup right, i like a front wheel drive car to be a bit oversteery.

Also had bit of a spending spree today so on the way i have:

Brembo Max HC discs
DS1.11 pads
OEM rear discs & DS2500 pads
ATE Fluid
BC Racing suspension
Camber adjusters
Rear spacers
Top mounts
Front and rear braces
Rear ARB
Full set of oem bushes (thanks chip & dan for the tips)

So then i just need some new tyres and thinking it has to be the 888s now I've gone for the suspension upgrade.

Are the 195/50/16s the ones for go for on the standard rims? Tyres on there now are 195/45/16s, will get another set of rims but the other rims will be for the sticky tyres. The ones on there now i will put a set of T1s on for the road and wet track use i think.

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

T1Rs ? Awful .. really rubbish on track and distinctly average on the road. R1R are a different story ! Depending how often you're going to be hooning on track - I'd run them all the time as track tyres. I wish I did..

I've got Nangkang NS-R2 on mine for dry days .. haven't been brave on track in the wet with them yet They do the job marvellously in the dry though.

 

[MarkCup]

Really rubbish?

I rated them when I ran my 172 cup. You have to accept there's a fair bit of movement from the sidewalls, but given that, they hang on really well and don't tear themselves apart no matter how much you abuse them or how hot you get them. Another plus is that when they let go, because of the sidewalls, it's really slow and pronounced giving you stacks of time to react.

If I had my 172 Cup again and a set of 15s I'd go straight out and get a set of these.

 

[ph1ls1]

T1Rs ? Awful .. really rubbish on track and distinctly average on the road. R1R are a different story ! Depending how often you're going to be hooning on track - I'd run them all the time as track tyres. I wish I did..

Thanks i will look for a set of these then and maybe just run them all the time, got the try the 888s too tho! Once i get my Lotus back in a week or 2 the Clio will really just be a track car, just trying to keep it as a half sensible backup car and for getting slightly bigger things home from the shops!

 

[CIW]

when the brake kit on (tomorrow hopefully) i will look at doing the liners and fogs, but as was pointed out to me by an engineer removing the fogs without the ducting will have other aerodynamic effects, so may keep that in reserve if i find i need it.

thanks for the tip on Boss Racing, i may run it up there once i have the new kit on it so its all setup right, i like a front wheel drive car to be a bit oversteery.

I went the 'quick and dirty' route of just pulling out the arch liners. I don't doubt there are negative side effects for this but, for me, the positive of getting air moving in the wheel well outweighed them. I do have ducting and plans for getting it all set up a bit neater (though not to the expense of a Cup racer type set up with flick ups on the arms etc). And, from reading an article on aero mods (to saloon cars) in Track Driver magazine a couple of years back I recall that simply opening up the fogs in a car doesn't necessarily mean you'll channel that much into them (as air moves across them from the centre line of the car) so I also have ideas of fashioning something to 'catch' the air to channel it.

Tyre wise I moved from T1R's to the 888's, both on 15" rims. I didn't like the T1R's much, they gripped ok but took too long to settle on their soft sidewalls when turning in and squealed like pigs. The 888's were a big step forward.

What did you race out of interest?

 

[ph1ls1]

I went the 'quick and dirty' route of just pulling out the arch liners. I don't doubt there are negative side effects for this but, for me, the positive of getting air moving in the wheel well outweighed them. I do have ducting and plans for getting it all set up a bit neater (though not to the expense of a Cup racer type set up with flick ups on the arms etc). And, from reading an article on aero mods (to saloon cars) in Track Driver magazine a couple of years back I recall that simply opening up the fogs in a car doesn't necessarily mean you'll channel that much into them (as air moves across them from the centre line of the car) so I also have ideas of fashioning something to 'catch' the air to channel it.

Tyre wise I moved from T1R's to the 888's, both on 15" rims. I didn't like the T1R's much, they gripped ok but took too long to settle on their soft sidewalls when turning in and squealed like pigs. The 888's were a big step forward.

What did you race out of interest?

I definately want a set of 888's, never heard a bad thing about them, just deciding what rims to put them on really.

I've raced mostly single seats, started in karts and have done some formula ford (earlier 1600 kent engines), formula 3, formula renault, formula palmer audi, even had an F1 test in one of the lesser cars but i wasnt quick enough (about 14 years ago now), then i did some testing with radical had a big crash and lost something after that so couldn't make a career of it. Bought a cheap already prepared XR2 and did a few stock hatch races but thats the only front wheel drive I've ever raced. Still got that XR2 though, can't bring myself to part with it, the only race car i drove i bought with my own money, getting that back on the track in the next month or so too, but hasn't seems a track for probably 8 years now so needs a bit of work.

Always happy to give some pointers if you see me at a track.

 

[CIW]

That's a very comprehensive racing CV!

XR2 sounds like it would go straight into the Cannon's Tin Tops who I've raced with at Brands, they're a BARC South East series so stay local:

http://www.barcsoutheast.co.uk/about.php

 

[ph1ls1]

That's a very comprehensive racing CV!

XR2 sounds like it would go straight into the Cannon's Tin Tops who I've raced with at Brands, they're a BARC South East series so stay local:

http://www.barcsoutheast.co.uk/about.php

Thanks for the link, looks like a good series with a good range of cars. Will check out the regs so as the XR is rebuilt it stays within the regs. May give that a go, even if I can't manage a full season. I have a little one & weekends are not mine anymore, although if he likes racing ill get him started early! Already he just loves being in the drivers seat, I can't wait!

 

[mark smith87]

To be honest if you get the suspension rock hard its uncomfortable to drive on anything other than ultra smooth Tarmac. The adjustable dampers that I have on the back are on the lowest setting at the moment and that's just right for me. The front struts are standard and are well up to the task of track days. I've hammered it round Brands Hatch, Bedford and loads of laps around Oulton Park without any dramas. Also been to Ty Croes with it. The car is really forgiving when it's driven hard. And I drive it hard most of the time. Ask anyone who's been with me. It's never scared me on the limit

 

[mark smith87]

I run R1-R's on the track and most of the time on the road even in ice and snow. Tried T1-R's and they crack up after a lot of hard use and wear very quickly. I've not tried 888's yet but might give them a try next time. They can be a bit noisy on the road though. Burpspeed use R1-R's on their Clio race car at 2 bar pressure. I've seen them racing in CSCC tin tops challenge series at Oulton Park.
There's a new series for 182 Clio's with 750 motor club. Well worth looking at for anyone that fancies a reasonably cheap way into racing.