I have been looking at ITB's and a mate recommended AT Power, but i cant quite sus out what the above kit comes with, obviously its not stand alone management, but could this kit be ran on standard? also i asume the kits for throttle cable so i will need the kit to use ITB's on a fly by wire, he also thinks he can get me a omex ecu cheap as someone on their forum reps for them, is it easy enough to fit if i can get everything seperate and then get it mapped? or am i just making it hard for myself? thanks.
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AT Power throttle bodies.
- Thread starter jordan_182
- Start date
172 Cup & Clio dci Van
i have too been considering this. This has been discussed in old posts so if you do a search on 'ITBs' you will find a lot of useful info on this. http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=399953
the omex if purchased from the right place 'can' come with a basemap but this is probably more suited to the jenvey set up, i cant imagine this would make too much difference mind, but you would also need to buy all the relevant sensors and a loom for the omex which i 'dont think' comes with the AT kit(off the top of my head)
It may well be cheaper doing it this way but make sure you get the map checked and tweeked to suit once all fitted. i Know i will.
the omex if purchased from the right place 'can' come with a basemap but this is probably more suited to the jenvey set up, i cant imagine this would make too much difference mind, but you would also need to buy all the relevant sensors and a loom for the omex which i 'dont think' comes with the AT kit(off the top of my head)
It may well be cheaper doing it this way but make sure you get the map checked and tweeked to suit once all fitted. i Know i will.
172 Cup & Clio dci Van
rps13
I think if some people have managed to run an f4r on a map for a completely different engine size, then an omex-jenvey base map would be absolutely fine to take it to be tuned.
This kit looks very good, does it come with cable pedal assembly etc?
Aside from a standalone, what else would you need to be running on these?
And I wonder if you could run them on k-tec's plug and play software?
This kit looks very good, does it come with cable pedal assembly etc?
Aside from a standalone, what else would you need to be running on these?
And I wonder if you could run them on k-tec's plug and play software?
ibiza cupra
im not sure if you can run itb`s on a fly wire. i think you have to convert it to cable.
172 Cup & Clio dci Van
ye you would need cable...
does anyone have the tools to play with the FBW throttle control, or is it a stand alone job? It looks like the throttle is on a CAN bus (?).
that's easily sorted with a chamber and a pipe off to each inlet, you may need to play around with restrictors and volume, or maybe not.
ValverInBits
....surely you get one stepper motor driving all 4?
Why does it look like its driven via CAN? It's just boggo VDO DBW body driven via H-Bridge with a pair of PPS and a pair of TPS for fail safe.
Cheers
M
just had another look at the drawing, it was the twisted pair that made me think that, but as you say, a pair to drive, and 2 pots for sensing. Same question though, has anyone got the kit to play with the settings in the standard ECU? How sophisticated is the standard algorithm? Does the throttle use a torque map to improve driveability, or is it just a simple relationship from pedal to throttle?
Torque based cal. Throttle position as a result of requested torque value with PPS as requested load value and MAP/TPS (in that order) as actual load value. Sirius strat for torque based engine control (which obviously includes DBW control) is very advanced and yes more than one person has the kit to play with it.
Cheers
M
Cheers
M
sounds much like I was trying to get Renault to do it years ago, they looked at me a bit sideways back then. They were just using a PPS/RPM lookup table to get TPS target at the time. Although I also tried to use traction available, and torque at the wheels to scale/limit the whole thing.
OEM cal is fun isn't it "... and how much engineering time will that be?" usualy followed by "no".
To be fair for most motorsport DBW applications I'll use PPS/RPM with some scaling in it for fuel consumption etc. (i.e. lean map isn't actualy lean as per old school but reduced throttle opening and slower opening rate - you lose no more than a traditional lean map this way where you'd run with much less spark). It's only the very advanced stuff where you'd go all the way with a torque based cal, probably integrated with your TCS strat and if at that level drive shaft torque sensors so you ran full closed loop torque based control.
Cheers
M
To be fair for most motorsport DBW applications I'll use PPS/RPM with some scaling in it for fuel consumption etc. (i.e. lean map isn't actualy lean as per old school but reduced throttle opening and slower opening rate - you lose no more than a traditional lean map this way where you'd run with much less spark). It's only the very advanced stuff where you'd go all the way with a torque based cal, probably integrated with your TCS strat and if at that level drive shaft torque sensors so you ran full closed loop torque based control.
Cheers
M
This was a motorsport application. Have you used a driveshaft torque sensor that works? I've given up trying as the only way they'll work is with a stiff section on the shaft, and I can't convince anyone to make custom shafts.
Yep, have a very accurate solution involving on shaft strain gauge, transmitter and on car reciever. It's so accurate that you can apply a torque, by hand, to the shaft and record a reading. It was run in F1 for a number of years with good results and is currently in use on a couple of sports prototypes.
Have to be honest for most motorsport applications I've not found a need to go any more advanced than PPS/RPM.
Cheers
M
Have to be honest for most motorsport applications I've not found a need to go any more advanced than PPS/RPM.
Cheers
M
sounds a bit like a PI system I played with years ago, we finally got it reliable enough to survive most of a day's testing. It wasn't much use though as the driveshafts took a different set on every corner exit, no repeatability at all.
Of course its Pi, who else is going to come up with stuff like that ;-)
Works repeatably and accuaretly these days and is in active use at the moment. What material were the shafts made of you were using? I can confirm from personal experience it works very accuately on a pair of 65K mile old boggo Renault road car shafts LOL
Cheers
M
Works repeatably and accuaretly these days and is in active use at the moment. What material were the shafts made of you were using? I can confirm from personal experience it works very accuately on a pair of 65K mile old boggo Renault road car shafts LOL
Cheers
M
Beru? Errm, if you don't want electronics on the shaft, ABB, NCTE, Magcanica.... The little spring behind the battery on the PI stuff was our doing, cured the previously dubious contact.
ahh, standard shafts will be brick s**thouse, so should be stable, I'm trying to think what the shafts are, but it's gone for the moment, the are 'proper' race stuff.
Hi guys,
The AT Power throttle body kits are just the throttle bodies and bracketry needed to fit them. We can supply ECU's as well, and if you use the Typhoon ECU we can arrange for fitting and mapping as well - but I suggest people use RS Tuning for that.
The throttle bodies will reuse the standard injectors and fuel rail, 172ph1 standard throttle cable, 172ph1 tps sensor, and you can keep the AC if you want. Includes the bodies, extensions, trumpets, throttle linkage, o-rings for the head, washers for the ram pipes, and they are fully built and vacuum balanced. Air filter / airbox we leave open to choice as the price varies massively between sock filters, and a carbon airbox. You shouldn't need to use bonnet pins or change the radiator with these throttle bodies. We are looking into the backets for the coil pack and the cable pedal.
Our drive by wire throttles are currently in progress to have a separate controller, which will talk to any ECU and is configurable for Throttle Position vs RPM as well as other funky things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLbct-xel68
Unfortunatetly due to the nature of OEM ECU's and all the safety checks the DBW motor system has to pass before the engine will start it is extremely difficult to satisfy everything, which means it is going to be very difficult to use the standard ECU. But for cable driven 172s RS Tuning want to get them working on standard ECU, as well as Williams/Hybrids.
Hope that helps.
John.
The AT Power throttle body kits are just the throttle bodies and bracketry needed to fit them. We can supply ECU's as well, and if you use the Typhoon ECU we can arrange for fitting and mapping as well - but I suggest people use RS Tuning for that.
The throttle bodies will reuse the standard injectors and fuel rail, 172ph1 standard throttle cable, 172ph1 tps sensor, and you can keep the AC if you want. Includes the bodies, extensions, trumpets, throttle linkage, o-rings for the head, washers for the ram pipes, and they are fully built and vacuum balanced. Air filter / airbox we leave open to choice as the price varies massively between sock filters, and a carbon airbox. You shouldn't need to use bonnet pins or change the radiator with these throttle bodies. We are looking into the backets for the coil pack and the cable pedal.
Our drive by wire throttles are currently in progress to have a separate controller, which will talk to any ECU and is configurable for Throttle Position vs RPM as well as other funky things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLbct-xel68
Unfortunatetly due to the nature of OEM ECU's and all the safety checks the DBW motor system has to pass before the engine will start it is extremely difficult to satisfy everything, which means it is going to be very difficult to use the standard ECU. But for cable driven 172s RS Tuning want to get them working on standard ECU, as well as Williams/Hybrids.
Hope that helps.
John.
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