Bedding In Or Ragging In

[Scutch]

Ive just been talking to my mate about the delivery of my 182 (April 14th hopefully) and got onto the subject of the bedding in period. Stay under 3-4k revs for the first 500 or so miles, then gradually work your way up until the car is properly accustomed to your right foot, and all the components and pieces making up the engine have settled.

He seems to think otherwise. He related a story to me about his friend, Malcolm Wilson (the rally driver - who should know a thing or two) when he got a MK2 Astra GTE from new back in the good old days. Big M claims that to get the best out of a car, you should give it some stick right from the off, that way the learning ECU becomes familiar with your needs, and will allow the engine and components to deliver what you want much faster. If you take it easy and allow the car to settle in, the ECU takes longer to become familiar when you do actually begin to cane it and tries to hold off thinking a mistake is being made.

It all sounds like swamp donkey talk to me, but having asked about the ECU in modern cars to Fellside they claim that many of them do actually adjust to your driving skills and will alter accordingly to how you drive the vehicle.

Does anyone else have any information on this? It still wont favour my right foot to the floor when I get my new car, but it was pretty interesting to say the least.

 

[Rich-D]

You can reset the ECU back to default at any time by simply disconnecting the battery and leaving it for a few mins so it loses its memory!

This guy is talking sh!te though and the ECU will not "hold back" if you take it easy, its constantly reading and adjusting to suit, so if youre drivign slowly one minute, then nailing it the next it knows and sorts out the fuelling & ignition as it sees fit!



My Cup was run in properly from new and rans the 1/4 mile in 14.5secs @ 94 mph, so hasnt exactly affected my peformance...

 

[Scutch]

So, in theory would a 182 be quicker than a Cup...hehe, only joking

Cheers Rich, some good advice there.

 

[Rich-D]

Your initial thoughts on running it in are what I did mate and will be doing the same if/when I get another new car...

Stay under 4krpm for about 500 miles, then gradually build it up to 1000 miles and then give it full beans from then on!

 

[Scutch]

This Malcolm Wilson guy also claimed that petrol is a fine substitute for those so called beans ? Is he talking out of his ass again??

What car you planning on getting next, if you have a preference at the mo?

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by Scutchio on 19 March 2004


What car you planning on getting next, if you have a preference at the mo?

Might actually swap the Cup in for a 182 (with Cup bits) but nothing deffo yet...

 

[Scutch]

Tidy. Im presuming youd go for the Arctic blue or would you be after something totally different to your Cup colour wise? Ive opted for Black / Gold although personally I love Cup blue. Cant even see the gold in the black / gold either!

 

[BenR]

And again, i restate that to properly run in an engine you need to apply a full load situatuation. What you are doing primarily is trying to bed in the rings and wear in the bearins. The rings wont bed properly unless given some stick since they rely on gas pressure from combustion to seal them. So a good 3rd gear full throttle run will help. And dont drive it like a pansy below 4k, do some full throttle funs t about 5500-6000rpm at least every now and again.

But then again nobody ever does it so it doesnt really bother me, but they do complain when they all get under 140bhp ATWs.

 

[Scutch]

lol, a mixed reaction I see...hmm...

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 19 March 2004


But then again nobody ever does it so it doesnt really bother me, but they do complain when they all get under 140bhp ATWs.

Mine was run in gently and I have 147bhp @ wheels...

Also runs 14.5s so hasnt harmed my performance!



Then on the flip side, my mate hammered his mk1 172 from new and that has never been quick, my old 106 GTi was as fast and at 50k miles it sounds like a diesel on cold startup.

 

[BenR]

Not saying rag it, im say that there is a systematic approach to what your trying to acheive.

Ifmost people understood what happens then you would see why babying the engine just isnt worth it. Ive probably had the only 172 on this forum which never suffered a single problem despite being ragged non stop, not even your banging problems.

Just think, you got 147 atw (and how accurate is that, since you always confirm that RRs are inaccurate hehehe)...how much couldyou have if you ran it in properly.

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 19 March 2004


Not saying rag it, im say that there is a systematic approach to what your trying to acheive.

So explain how you would run an engine in correctly from new then...

I am genuinely interested and know that you actually do know what youre talking about!






Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 19 March 2004




Ifmost people understood what happens then you would see why babying the engine just isnt worth it. Ive probably had the only 172 on this forum which never suffered a single problem despite being ragged non stop, not even your banging problems.


[/QUOTE]
There are quite a few 172 drivers on here that aint had a problem, but you only hear about the ones that do!

However this has nothing to do with running the engine in...






Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 19 March 2004




Just think, you got 147 atw (and how accurate is that, since you always confirm that RRs are inaccurate hehehe)...how much couldyou have if you ran it in properly.



[/QUOTE]
Its the @ fly figures that RRs seem to just randomly generate that I dont trust!

Mine may or may not have 147bhp @ wheels, there is no way of accurately knowing, but its all weve got!

As for if it was run in according to your methods, I very much doubt it would be much (if any) quicker down the 1/4 mile than 14.5secs for a near standard car!!!

 

[paddymph]

caned mine from day 1, RR was mailto:152@Wheels"> 152@Wheels + 14.7 1/4 mile.

Not had any major problems, just usual stuff, eg 4k rattle etc.

 

[Lagerlout]

How accurate is that time though? If we go down that road we could be here all day!!

I ran mine in in the same fashion as RichD, but I have no recorded proof of performance (accurate or otherwise!!) to say whether the method I used hindered the performance of my cars engine.

Looking at Richs 1/4 mile time and his ATW figure, it suggests to me that running it in gently certainly doesnt havent any detremental effect on the engines performance.

When I ran mine in, I was also conscious that I was also running in the brakes, suspension etc but Im not sure how much truth there is in that....

 

[paddymph]

accurate as u can be!! Was done at York Dragway where rich did his.

 

[Lagerlout]

Was the point I was trying to make mate!! ^^ just not very well obviously!!

 

[BenR]

Manufacture reccomendations always err on the side of caution, it is their money afterall if it breaks, so they do prefer you pitter potter about.

With brakes ive written about correct bedding in. Bedding in is the simple process of burning off the bonding resins and this doesnt take 200 miles.

With the engine, when were talking running in there is a compramise. The sealing of the rings vs the bedding of the bearings. THe bearings take all the load so yo dont want to strip the coating, spin them or score them......So this means no extended high rpm use for a little bit, but this also doesnt mean NO high rpm, so long as your not bouncing off the limiter.

When an engine is built new rings and the fresh hatching from the hone need to wear off surface irregularities to seal properly and most effectively hold in cylinder pressure. The top ring uses the pressure from combustion to push it against the cylinder walls, this is why hey are a loose fit with a clearance, gas can get round to the back of the ring. Racing engines we run no clearance but we drill in gas ports that reach into the ringlands. Anyway, the more load you apply, the larger the burn, the more pressure, the harder the rings are pushed against the walls, the more evenly the rings seal and the more power you will get.

 

[skiddusmarkus]

Im with you Ben.Im having my engine rebuilt to a high spec and have looked into running in procedures.Mine will be thrashed for the first 20 miles then have the oil dropped(this gets rid of all the nasty bits of metal youve loosened).Its improtant to bed the rings in and they dont unless under full load.After that it will slowly have the rev limit increased with the odd flat out burst of acceleration in between.

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by paddymph on 19 March 2004


caned mine from day 1, not had any major problems

There was that wierd thing with the injection system...

We ever work out what the f*ck that was?!

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by paddymph on 19 March 2004

accurate as u can be!! Was done at York Dragway where rich did his.

Aye, me & Paddy both run at the same place (York) and its FIA approved timing gear, the same system as used at Santa Pod so pretty much as accurate as youre gonna get.

Plus, with the RR figures, we both used the same place, although was done on different days...

 

[c__w]

The bit about an old Astra GTE with an ECU that learns something is total rubbish. New ECUs might be able to learn driving styles but its probably not going to make much difference.

There is the theory that ragging from the offset produces a more powerul engine but a the expense of a shorter engine lifespan.

I think if I were to run a brand new engine in (but saying that these days engines dont need to be run in like older ones did), Id just be gentle as it warmed up as you wuld do anyway, then just make sure it gets varied driving, but I wouldnt necessarily be going high revs though.

 

[JAY172]

an injection ecu does self learn and adjust its parameters depending on the average driving style.this is fact and on newer cars the parameters the ecu adjusts can be shown on clip.on newer cars only the clip can reset these parameters unless of course your driving style changes and the ecu will change with it.on older cars you just disconnect the battery for 10mins.as for running in i think that average driving with the odd blast should do it.the demonstrators we have at work we used for a test ages ok.one got thrashed from day one and one run in as per renault recommendations.the one that had been thrashed was quicker than the other one but i can remember it come in for some work quite a while later(about 60,000miles)and the bottem end had gone.obviuosly this doesnt happen all the time but it did make me think that the early engine failure was linked to all the thrash it got from the start.but as this thread shows everybody has there own opinion on whats the best way so who knows who is actually right.

 

[boyced]

forget which mag it was in but they took two bikes, ragged one from day one and drove the other like an old man on a sunday afternoon.

The one they ragged used more oil, cannot remember what happened about the power output.

I think someone posted it on here a long time ago.

 

[BenR]

Point is, you dont ragg the thing senseless. You do what is required to bed the rings and itll burn LESS oil than a granny running in. Why, because it seals better.

 

[stan*]

Quote: Originally posted by Rich-D on 19 March 2004


Its the @ fly figures that RRs seem to just randomly generate that I dont trust!

a r/r calculates power at the fly by a run-down test. this is where on deceleration (clutch in) it measures the resistance of the gearbox, compared to just the rollers rotating. not all r/rs can do this tho

so it isnt just randomly generated!!

 

[Dansta]

not sayin a word on this subject!! cough** 156bhp atws with 3.5k on te clock. **cough

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by stan* on 20 March 2004

Quote: Originally posted by Rich-D on 19 March 2004


Its the @ fly figures that RRs seem to just randomly generate that I dont trust!

a r/r calculates power at the fly by a run-down test. this is where on deceleration (clutch in) it measures the resistance of the gearbox, compared to just the rollers rotating. not all r/rs can do this tho

so it isnt just randomly generated!!

Not all rolling roads can do this, but thats not the point.

It might not be as random, but its is almost as misleadingly inaccurate. Sure, its at least an attempt at gathering data on transmission losses, but due to the nature of a gearbox, it leads to just an indefinite result.

With any rolling road wheel bhp figures will be different depending on which gear you do the run in. Meaning you loose bhp the higer you gear is simply though increased wheel speeds and gear speeds leading to more friction blah blah blah. Not a problem some say, since the nature of coast down losses will take into account the increase in tranny losses and add this figure to the wheel BHP and you should theoretically end up with the same result.

Not true, if you go out and do it your more likely to find that the in gear coast down losses increase at a far more rapid rate then the power decreases in higher gears.

So, using this method your more likely to fin the flywheel bhp does change with the gear used. In most cases your calculated fly bhp will increase with each higer gear used.

Then there is the unknown quantity that is the RR operator, and we have no idea just how accurate their wheel figures are as we have no idea how often or how accurately they calibrate their machines. Calibrating generally consists of weights and rods as you can generate a known torque then compare it to the RR figure.

 

[skiddusmarkus]

Heres a reply I got from an engine builder:



I think a newly biult engine always runs a little bit " tighter " , which is why we advise doing 1k miles before giving them any real stick , and even after that, we keep them at low boost for a further period , but thats really just to make sure everything is ok , rarther than "running in " . After a full rebiuld I will always take the car out myself , and put a few miles on them to get everything up to max temp , then once we have checked for leaks etc , I will run it on the road giving it a few quick stabs to make the turbo reach full boost , and then lift. I do this as , the boost will force the rings out against the cylinder walls, which really helps them bed in , and then once you lift , creating max vacum , the oil will be drawn up the cylinder walls to stop any glazing. When doing this I am careful not to use too high an rpm , as its the pressure in the cylinder we are trying to get.
All this is done in the first 20-30 miles. Then once everything has been checked , and we are happy its ok , we tell the customer to use up to 4k rpm for the first 500 miles , but always tell them about stabbing the pedal a few times during this time.
Then we raise the rpm limit by 500 every 100 miles from then on. Once they have done approx 1k miles , we get them to drive the car normal but on low boost for another 500 miles , after that if everything is ok , we do an oil/filter change , and set it up as per spec.



A link to a site with lots of info on it:



http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htmU color=#006699http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm/U

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by stan* on 20 March 2004

Its the @ fly figures that RRs seem to just randomly generate that I dont trust!

a r/r calculates power at the fly by a run-down test. this is where on deceleration (clutch in) it measures the resistance of the gearbox, compared to just the rollers rotating. not all r/rs can do this tho

so it isnt just randomly generated!!

I am fully aware of how they work, but the flywheel figures they give are usually a little on the generous side and show much larger transmission losses than there actually are...

 

[paddymph]

Quote: Originally posted by Rich-D on 19 March 2004

Quote: Originally posted by paddymph on 19 March 2004


caned mine from day 1, not had any major problems

There was that wierd thing with the injection system...

We ever work out what the f*ck that was?!

yeah, nowt to do with injectors themselves, more the injector ecu, they re-programmed it and it was ok.

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by paddymph on 20 March 2004


yeah, nowt to do with injectors themselves, more the injector ecu, they re-programmed it and it was ok.

So, back to normal then?!

 

[paddymph]

yup

 

[MAC30L]

I ragged my old 52 plate Cup from the word go and I thought it was a quick yin by the time it had hit 17500miles odd.

I thought I would bed my new Cup in gently (done just under 800 miles now), to see what the dif was, never above 3000rpm for 100 miles, and I could count on one hand how many times it touched 5000rpm until the other night. Right I thought, time for the test

At the part of the road (everybody has one!), where I could nudge 130mph in my old Cup, I knocked on the door of 135 in my new one. Does this prove a point? Make your own minds up.

Mac

 

[TB11]

Ran my Spec C in nicely (1600miles on the clock now) and what does she give me.... a mere 343.5lbs of torque (they quote 290lbs) so that says something eh

Tony

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by TB11 on 20 March 2004


so that says something eh

Yeah, Japs lie about the spec of their cars!

 

[Scutch]

lol

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by skiddusmarkus on 20 March 2004


Heres a reply I got from an engine builder:



I think a newly biult engine always runs a little bit " tighter " , which is why we advise doing 1k miles before giving them any real stick , and even after that, we keep them at low boost for a further period , but thats really just to make sure everything is ok , rarther than "running in " . After a full rebiuld I will always take the car out myself , and put a few miles on them to get everything up to max temp , then once we have checked for leaks etc , I will run it on the road giving it a few quick stabs to make the turbo reach full boost , and then lift. I do this as , the boost will force the rings out against the cylinder walls, which really helps them bed in , and then once you lift , creating max vacum , the oil will be drawn up the cylinder walls to stop any glazing. When doing this I am careful not to use too high an rpm , as its the pressure in the cylinder we are trying to get.
All this is done in the first 20-30 miles. Then once everything has been checked , and we are happy its ok , we tell the customer to use up to 4k rpm for the first 500 miles , but always tell them about stabbing the pedal a few times during this time.
Then we raise the rpm limit by 500 every 100 miles from then on. Once they have done approx 1k miles , we get them to drive the car normal but on low boost for another 500 miles , after that if everything is ok , we do an oil/filter change , and set it up as per spec.



A link to a site with lots of info on it:



http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htmU color=#006699http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm/U

DO you trust a tuner that starts his info with I think!!!!?????

And by the time 1000 miles is up, your way past the point of return for bedding in the rings properly.

That site tells it like it is........THATS the way to do it.