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cam upgrades pointless?



Probably one for the geeks. Just read this on a tuners website is it saying that cam upgrades, on there own, are pointless on modern 16V engines?

"1. On almost all modern 16 valve production engines compression ratios are quite high to aide combustion for low emissions & the way the compression is kept high is to not to keep piston pockets to a minimum. This unfortunately allows little if any room for increase the opening of the cam at TDC (which is the easiest way to generate extra BHP by using the exhaust gases to help draw in the next charge).

2. The Designers of modern combustion engines are also being asked to make them smaller, lighter, as well as being cheaper to produce. So the room for increasing the cam lift with out replacing the valve springs is usually quite small.

3. Because of the problems mentioned in 1 & 2. The gains are usually quite small for money spent. The way you can attempt tuning your standard engine just by cams changes are.

a. The use of Group N Cam profiles these are normally used in cars where the Championship rules specify that standard cam profiles must be used. But the FIA & most other motor sport governing bodies give a tolerance which is usually + or – 2 Degrees on the duration & + or – 0.2mm on the lift. So these are taken advantage of on special ground profiles that are extremely accurately ground to the upper limits of these tolerances. But unfortunately the gains from this type of profile are very small. In Group N type Championships though, any small gain is always worth having, but for any other competition where such rules do not apply we would not recommend this type of profile.

b. The second type of profile is sometimes called a group N+ profile. These are designed for championships where the rules state your engine must retain standard or near standard valve lift, no modifications are allowed to the standard piston pockets, but cam duration is free. The problem with this type of cam is because of the restriction caused by the valve to piston pocket clearance. Usually they are very special cam profiles, which have been designed with very rapid valve opening to take maximum advantage of the limited space available. The problem with this is that they have to be very carefully run in, are not suitable for high mileage use & must be very accurately timed to avoid valve to piston contact. Again only recommend where regulations force their use.

c. The last & most often attempted way of fitting an up-rated cam is to use a profile, which is quite mild on acceleration with a mild increase in duration over the standard cam. The problem with this is as stated before, due to the lack of space the new cam profile cannot be timed to its optimum. This will give 1 of 2 similar effects. Either a huge loss in bottom end torque & only a small increase in peak power, over the original cam. This usually occurs if the replacement cam profiles have to be Retarded a long way (to avoid piston contact) because their duration is a lot greater than the standard cams. Or if the new profile is mild enough to fit with only slight retardation the effect is almost the same accept the loss in bottom end torque is not as great & the gain in peak BHP is almost not worth having."
 

Gaz_

ClioSport Club Member
  Extreme mode
seems to back up the theory of lots of ££ spent on the f4r for little bhp gain?
 
I would like to know which type, a b or c, of cam the Renault tuners offer and what are the expected pros and cons from running these types of cam.

I think it is type b and if so are the running in and high mileage issues valid.
 
BenR's the man man on this talking abour ramp rates etc there definatly gains there I'm sure Bens fall into catagory D there (ie another one).
 
Probably one for the geeks. Just read this on a tuners website is it saying that cam upgrades, on there own, are pointless on modern 16V engines?

"1. On almost all modern 16 valve production engines compression ratios are quite high to aide combustion for low emissions & the way the compression is kept high is to not to keep piston pockets to a minimum. This unfortunately allows little if any room for increase the opening of the cam at TDC (which is the easiest way to generate extra BHP by using the exhaust gases to help draw in the next charge).

Get off.......all engines concentrate on high ouput and use vvt for emissions/low rpm torque. Were not in 1991. With all the Vtec, VVTL-i, VVT, i-Vtec, variocam, VVL...yadda yadda.......all these engines have scope for fantastic overlap. Hondas K20A can jump from 197bhp to 240bhp with a cam swap and the usual intake/exhaust/remap. Even renaults 172/182 pickup fantastic torque, but peak bhp is limited by the inlet manifold and rpm.

2. The Designers of modern combustion engines are also being asked to make them smaller, lighter, as well as being cheaper to produce. So the room for increasing the cam lift with out replacing the valve springs is usually quite small.

Smaller yes, you can run less ignition timing and with current trends, increased stroke is what everybody is moving too rather than large bores and big valves. And why should a small chamber or a 'light' (wtf is a light chamber) affect peak lift because the springs coilbind early? And how does chamber design affect cost, surely the overly complex oilways and lifter systems used nowadays completely throw the idea of cheap castings out the window.

3. Because of the problems mentioned in 1 & 2. The gains are usually quite small for money spent. The way you can attempt tuning your standard engine just by cams changes are.

b****cks

a. The use of Group N Cam profiles these are normally used in cars where the Championship rules specify that standard cam profiles must be used. But the FIA & most other motor sport governing bodies give a tolerance which is usually + or – 2 Degrees on the duration & + or – 0.2mm on the lift. So these are taken advantage of on special ground profiles that are extremely accurately ground to the upper limits of these tolerances. But unfortunately the gains from this type of profile are very small. In Group N type Championships though, any small gain is always worth having, but for any other competition where such rules do not apply we would not recommend this type of profile.

Who runs GrpN cams anyway, its pointless.

b. The second type of profile is sometimes called a group N+ profile. These are designed for championships where the rules state your engine must retain standard or near standard valve lift, no modifications are allowed to the standard piston pockets, but cam duration is free. The problem with this type of cam is because of the restriction caused by the valve to piston pocket clearance. Usually they are very special cam profiles, which have been designed with very rapid valve opening to take maximum advantage of the limited space available. The problem with this is that they have to be very carefully run in, are not suitable for high mileage use & must be very accurately timed to avoid valve to piston contact. Again only recommend where regulations force their use.

Any good engine builder would do that with any cam anyway, were talking basics here.

c. The last & most often attempted way of fitting an up-rated cam is to use a profile, which is quite mild on acceleration with a mild increase in duration over the standard cam. The problem with this is as stated before, due to the lack of space the new cam profile cannot be timed to its optimum. This will give 1 of 2 similar effects. Either a huge loss in bottom end torque & only a small increase in peak power, over the original cam. This usually occurs if the replacement cam profiles have to be Retarded a long way (to avoid piston contact) because their duration is a lot greater than the standard cams. Or if the new profile is mild enough to fit with only slight retardation the effect is almost the same accept the loss in bottom end torque is not as great & the gain in peak BHP is almost not worth having."

I think someone needs to start thinking about cam design a tad harder and its applications. Ramp fast, hard and as close to the piston as possible, run a stronger spring if needed, control harmonics and use vvt/vtec to its optimum. Gains can be fantastic.
 
I would like to know which type, a b or c, of cam the Renault tuners offer and what are the expected pros and cons from running these types of cam.

I think it is type b and if so are the running in and high mileage issues valid.

None, there are no cons.

We run mini RPRF (roller path radius followers) which allow alot of load and zero wear with compound ratios because of the rocker ratio changes as lift values change.

If an old racing cam designer from the 70's looked at a stock renault 182 cam he would faint at the acceleration rates and overall squareness of the cam. As a friend once told me, they referred to these sorts of things as 'flying bricks' due to the lift profile on paper.

BANG open.....hold open.....bang close

Maximise time off the seat and hold as high an average lift as possible. Ports flow s**t at low lifts, so we dont want to be there.
 
None, there are no cons.

We run mini RPRF (roller path radius followers) which allow alot of load and zero wear with compound ratios because of the rocker ratio changes as lift values change.

If an old racing cam designer from the 70's looked at a stock renault 182 cam he would faint at the acceleration rates and overall squareness of the cam. As a friend once told me, they referred to these sorts of things as 'flying bricks' due to the lift profile on paper.

BANG open.....hold open.....bang close

Maximise time off the seat and hold as high an average lift as possible. Ports flow s**t at low lifts, so we dont want to be there.


Its amazing the variety of opinions you get on the internet when it comes to tuning engines. The quote was taken from SBD a Vauxhall tuners website.

I wish I knew more about the technical side of engines. It is good to have BenR and Stan on this website who are experts and can give a detailed response to any questions

PS I wasnt doubting your cams just thought a question about something other then air filters would be a bit more interesting:D
 
Can't really offer any technical advice but I thought that cams on my old 172 was definately one of the best mods I did. Transformed the way the car drove.
 
If an old racing cam designer from the 70's looked at a stock renault 182 cam he would faint at the acceleration rates and overall squareness of the cam. As a friend once told me, they referred to these sorts of things as 'flying bricks' due to the lift profile on paper.

What has changed in the modern engine to allow for these more extreme cam profiles.
 
typically material quality, design and theory advance, new techniques of manufacture allowing more far fetched ideas.

The basic aim is to hold the valve as high as possible for as long as possible, because this means that you spend the most time possible at a lift value high enough to flow like the port can supply. EVen if flow doesnt increase past 10mm, you lift to 13mm because then you spend more time at higher lifts on the lift and lower flanks, increasing the mean lift value.

Problems arise when your flicking the valves open as fast as possible such as spring surge and harmonics which make the spring come off its seat and retainers and basically bounce around in mid air not touching anything, so you loose all valve control.

Watch this vid and you can see what happens to a spring at high rpm, its even a triple spring setup which us used because each spring will have a different natural frequency where it all goes tits up. They also run interference fit so they rub against eachother and generate much more complex harmonic orders. This way we can run lower pressures and suffer less power losses and load on bearings, cam lobes and associated valve train assembly, meaning they can be made lighter aswell.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/966897_qme9x/valve spring test.wmv

There is alot which goes on............cam design is one of the most complex things in engine tuning.
 
  Ferrari enzo
I can't believe some of the s**t i read on the internet.
Tight PTV my arse.
Shock statements to make you go to them for the work.
Its bollox.
 
Here are more great vids to explain.

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/...C_valve_spring_tests_1000-6000rpm_1000fps.wmv

This vid shows how sprigns react as rpm increases from 1000rpm to 6000rpm. You can see the small spring has a harmonic wave passing through it, and you can see it move up and down the spring, it gets really bad at high rpm but stays under control just (and by that i mean the spring doesnt come off the seat or retainer, not that the valve doesnt float). The big spring reaches a natural frequency at about 3000rpm, then calms down again.

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/..._tests_coils_removed_3500-6000rpm_1000fps.wmv

same thing but with coils removed from the small spring.

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/...lve_spring_close-up_1000vs6000rpm_3000fps.wmv

in this closeup you can actually see the valve float that occurs from the loss of control.
 


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