Cambelt Crank Pulley?

[Iceberg_172]

Just removed my old cam belt from my engine.

When i removed the 18mm bolt and washer in the end of the crank, the aux belt pulley slipped off very easilly followed by the cambelt pulley. I didnt need to force them off too much.

When i looked at it, there is a keyway in the crank but no woodruff key on any of the pulleys. is this meant to be like this? the pulleys are just held on by the 18mm bolt? How do they cope lol?

Iv done a few searches and seen some answers but just need someone in the proper know to confirm this.

Thanks in advance.

Kev

 

[Alastair.]

stop if you dont know what your doing!!!

 

[MicKPM]

Yes this is correct and I'm guessing you are doing it without the aid of any of the required locking tools?

The F4R is a keyless sprocket setup so no woodrough keys or timing marks are provided by Renault as the timing is set and locked by means of three very specific pieces of equipment:

• Crankshaft locking pin
• Camshaft setting bar - aka "Horse shoe"
• Camshaft pulley locking tool

All three are required and attempting to do the job without them will end in tears

Mick

 

[sideways danny]

1. STOP!!!!!!

2. read this thread. http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?510521-cambelt-problems-(local-garages)

3. call someone who can fix it

 

[Sean6545]

lol!!

 

[Fred@BTM]

uh oh!

 

[scotty2hotty81]

O dear has someone been using tipex? Lol

 

[Iceberg_172]

lol forget i asked

 

[Jimbo_924]

Hi Kev,

Tried to send you a pm, because this opinion always gets me in trouble, but apparently your inbox is full.

There is indeed no key, so it is possible to get the timing off quite easily, but the job isn't only reserved for specialists, its more than doable by those with a good mechanical knowledge. If your replacing the camshaft seals you should used the additional pulley locking tool, although again have a look at the pictures of it and you can get an idea of what it does.

Did mine when it hit 22k and 5yrs, its now on 46k and hasn't missed a beat, even pulls away from most other 172's at track days, with a totally std setup. James

PS: If you need any advice feel free to pm me

PPS: Anyone who posted a sarcastic, non-helpful, in some cases insulting message, please refrain in future, it can't help the forum as a whole or indeed the individual in question. Sorry, Rant Over!

 

[Iceberg_172]

Yes this is correct and I'm guessing you are doing it without the aid of any of the required locking tools?

The F4R is a keyless sprocket setup so no woodrough keys or timing marks are provided by Renault as the timing is set and locked by means of three very specific pieces of equipment:

• Crankshaft locking pin
• Camshaft setting bar - aka "Horse shoe"
• Camshaft pulley locking tool

All three are required and attempting to do the job without them will end in tears

Mick

thanks mick for the only reply that is usefull to me. yeah i have purchased the correct tool kit for doing the belt. ordered new crank pulley bolt etc. just wasnt sure if iv dropped the wood ruff key if there was one. im aware of the 3 or 4 rotations by hand etc aswell.

end of the day, its only a cam belt on an engine, dont know why so many people get on their high horse and give us non-specialists a hard time about it when we ask a question.

thanks

 

[Iceberg_172]

thansk jimbo, just emptied my inbox. i will keep you in mind if i come across any trouble

 

[Fred@BTM]

thanks mick for the only reply that is usefull to me. yeah i have purchased the correct tool kit for doing the belt. ordered new crank pulley bolt etc. just wasnt sure if iv dropped the wood ruff key if there was one. im aware of the 3 or 4 rotations by hand etc aswell.

end of the day, its only a cam belt on an engine, dont know why so many people get on their high horse and give us non-specialists a hard time about it when we ask a question.

thanks

without offense, most people/garages **** it up for that reason "its only a cambelt change" - yes it is, but the wrong procedure = **** up

autodata - wrong
renault workshop manual - 1 of the 2 methods listed is for the non VVT F4R and can (and is) mistaken to be the correct procedure for the VVT engine - which c***s up the cam timing

 

[Iceberg_172]

I dont mean its only a belt change so who cares if it gets screwed up, because i do care as its my car, Im saying it in the sense that when we ask a question about a specific part to do with cambelts and timing, you get a long story off some people on here who go way over the top (not naming names) basically saying, dont touch it cos you will f**k it up as you are not a specialist! leave it to them.

sorry but, i dont need a bit paper to say "specialist" just to prove that i can change a belt. Im sure i have done way more complex things in my life.

Its only someone asking advice about changing the belt so no need for some to go on a rant. I understand that alot of the guys get alot of f**kups back from incompetent people who made one mistake for example, by not inserting the crank locking tool in correctly or not making sure the cam locking tool is inserted correctly or even tightening the pulleys up too much and not letting them rotate and then thinking its done.

Im aware of the procedure, what tools i need and what i need to change, and yeah i have been told to stay away from autodata! why havent they corrected that btw?

Im just saying, as the specialists, quit being so sarcastic and try helping some of the guys out. at the end of the day, we are asking for peoples knowledge on the forum, not what we should do next because we have f**ked it all up and feel like re**rds.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i get your point, i for one try to help people out as much as i can, but after the 100th time of "my mate dave is doing it for £100" followed by a week later "my engine has gone bang, help" we eventually get bored of banging our heads against the wall! I think thats why you get the reaction you do from some of the specialists (either that or we're all arrogant sods LOL!)

example,

Specialist says "do it this way"
Billy says "why, i can just use tippex"
Specialist explains why it must be done in the method he describes
Billy says "yeah but why"
Specialist gives up

without sounding arrogant
we don't have to be on here answering peoples questions, i for one enjoy it and hope i try and help prevent people from making a mistake/getting ripped off etc etc, but there is a limit, some people just won't listen!

If you get stuck you're welcome (and anyone else reading) to call me, as i'm sure the other specialists won't mind advising over the phone, but remember we do have to make a living and hence can't spend all day on the phone!

 

[BenadetH]

I don't get why people feel the need to not take heed of the pretty much the most important piece of advice when owning a clio sport? What do they think is going on...some elaborate conspiracy...Just take it to a specialist and get the piece of mind and the job a car as awesome as these deserve.

 

[sideways danny]

i get your point, i for one try to help people out as much as i can, but after the 100th time of "my mate dave is doing it for £100" followed by a week later "my engine has gone bang, help" we eventually get bored of banging our heads against the wall! I think thats why you get the reaction you do from some of the specialists (either that or we're all arrogant sods LOL!)

example,

Specialist says "do it this way"
Billy says "why, i can just use tippex"
Specialist explains why it must be done in the method he describes
Billy says "yeah but why"
Specialist gives up

without sounding arrogant
we don't have to be on here answering peoples questions, i for one enjoy it and hope i try and help prevent people from making a mistake/getting ripped off etc etc, but there is a limit, some people just won't listen!

If you get stuck you're welcome (and anyone else reading) to call me, as i'm sure the other specialists won't mind advising over the phone, but remember we do have to make a living and hence can't spend all day on the phone!

this!!!! exactly in these EXACT words. I literally have my head in my hands 10 times a day after giving advice to people who cut corners to save money and wont listen to wisdom earned from experience. There comes a point when you get so frustrated you just dont want to help anymore

 

[Fred@BTM]

christ did we just agree on something Danny??

 

[sideways danny]

no f**k off, you're talking b****cks, it never happened

 

[Fred@BTM]

:star:

 

[Sam@NP]

^FLOL

 

[Iceberg_172]

I know what you guys mean and yeah you must make a living from it aswell.

I asked a simple question. As to why a part is the way it is. If i came on and said "ok iv f**ked this up someone help" then i would expect and accept to be called all the names under the sun lol.

And no. No tippex getting used on it lol. If i think iv done a bit wrong, i wont be starting the car.

Think my problem also. There aint many specialists up my way for miles and no way am i going to my local dealer. So why not do it myself when the engines out the car in bits anyway.

One question though. Should i replace the dephaser pulley? How would i know it needs replaced? It seems fine to me and aint making any noises.

Thanks

 

[MicKPM]

TBH its not rocket science and I share your frustrations but the process is the process which is there for a reason and when, which is normally the case around here at least, people think they can cut corners and circumvent the process without any come backs it always does come back and clears out your bank account, hence the warnings. You sound like you're a clued up guy and will be using the correct tooling so if you take your time and follow the process to the letter you will be fine.

As for the dephaser I always inspect them and if there are any signs of movement or "free play" between the inner and outer assembly I say replace it as there should be non. Normally, I say that if you can afford to have it changed then do it as £157 now is better than putting it all together again and then having to pull it all down again in 2 months time as the unit has failed. On the flip side of that coin though I've got one customer who has had two belts now on his F4R due to age and has covered 96k... it is still on the original dephaser!

Mick

 

[182michael]

You will drive it 10 miles down the road after you change the belt and it will start rattling, happened to mine.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Yes this is correct and I'm guessing you are doing it without the aid of any of the required locking tools?

The F4R is a keyless sprocket setup so no woodrough keys or timing marks are provided by Renault as the timing is set and locked by means of three very specific pieces of equipment:

• Crankshaft locking pin
• Camshaft setting bar - aka "Horse shoe"
• Camshaft pulley locking tool

All three are required and attempting to do the job without them will end in tears

Mick

I was looking at a gates cambelt kit the other day which comes with a guide on how to do it with pics. Now it makes sense to me, but doesn't anywhere mention that you need to use the pully locking tool. Only the crank and cam. Surely this is a recipe for disaster as the cam locking tool is quite weak.

 

[Iceberg_172]

Thanks mick. May aswell replace it. Mines has covered about the same miles and is srill on the original dephaser.

On the other hand. I am going to put a set of ED camshafts in. Think they are 286/280. Now any other engine i have built with cams. I have followed with a set of vernier pulleys. On this though im not so sure. Obviously the process for setting the cam timing will change wont it? I aint gonna be setting the timing to perfection with these as imo i think that is a job for whoever i will get to map the car. But if running verniers, i suspect the manufacturer will have put marks o the pulleys unlike standard.

If setting the basic timing with these is easier than standard i may aswell go down this route while i have the option to do it, elimination the dephaser situation altogether. That comes with a price of lumpy idle doesnt it? which i can accept ofcourse.

 

[Iceberg_172]

You will drive it 10 miles down the road after you change the belt and it will start rattling, happened to mine.

Obviously someone got something seriously wrong on yours. How will i drive 10 miles and it will do the same?

 

[MicKPM]

@Iceberg

I can't comment on that Iceberg as I'm not a performance tuner and my experience with such things is limited... I just fix em right and keep em running right I'm afraid.

I'm guessing that the vernier assembly will bolt to the cam in the normal way (With a modified inlet camshaft oil seal to suit the cam) and bolt up in a traditional manor as per the exhaust pulley. It will then allow the inner and outer assembly to be un-locked thus allowing you to advanced or retarded the cam timing before locking it up once again... I personally don't trust them as I've seen the Kent/Piper units fail before but if thats the way you want to go they're a necessary evil.

@ Jonny
Its a common error and I've been called out to a few garages locally to help them get out of a big hole with this before and why they still continue to take the jobs on without buying the tool they've seen me use is beyond me. I believe that's because the only people to officially acknowledge the existence of the camshaft pulley locking tool, at the time of publishing, was Renault and how many independent garages have genuine access to such docs when most don't even have illegal versions of AutoData. Speaking of AutoData faults, the F5R is another Renault engine that AutoData have wrong as the belt run is completely wrong in the graphic and is missing an idler! (I believe they show a non-vvc F4R). I don't know why AutoData and the likes of Gates don't make you aware of the use of special tools but I personally use Vivid Workshop data (Mainly because it's more electrical biased than AutoData) and that employs the actual manufacturer documentation sections for timing belt, aux belt and other mechanical matters... much easier for them I guess from an authoring point of view.

Mick

 

[Fred@BTM]

you can't run verniers with VVT cams, you have to remove it, hence timing is set to stock with VVT cams

 

[Jonny1*2]

@Iceberg

I can't comment on that Iceberg as I'm not a performance tuner and my experience with such things is limited... I just fix em right and keep em running right I'm afraid.

I'm guessing that the vernier assembly will bolt to the cam in the normal way (With a modified inlet camshaft oil seal to suit the cam) and bolt up in a traditional manor as per the exhaust pulley. It will then allow the inner and outer assembly to be un-locked thus allowing you to advanced or retarded the cam timing before locking it up once again... I personally don't trust them as I've seen the Kent/Piper units fail before but if thats the way you want to go they're a necessary evil.

@ Jonny
Its a common error and I've been called out to a few garages locally to help them get out of a big hole with this before and why they still continue to take the jobs on without buying the tool they've seen me use is beyond me. I believe that's because the only people to officially acknowledge the existence of the camshaft pulley locking tool, at the time of publishing, was Renault and how many independent garages have genuine access to such docs when most don't even have illegal versions of AutoData. Speaking of AutoData faults, the F5R is another Renault engine that AutoData have wrong as the belt run is completely wrong in the graphic and is missing an idler! (I believe they show a non-vvc F4R). I don't know why AutoData and the likes of Gates don't make you aware of the use of special tools but I personally use Vivid Workshop data (Mainly because it's more electrical biased than AutoData) and that employs the actual manufacturer documentation sections for timing belt, aux belt and other mechanical matters... much easier for them I guess from an authoring point of view.

Mick

So basically some garages don't know the correct methods, and will always fall short. They shouldn't be allowed to sell kit with incorrect instructions as surely the likes of gates would be liable for any issues that are likely to occur.

What's even more baffling is how the f**k do they get the main cam pulleys off without it. Virgin tight those bolts.

 

[Iceberg_172]

ah ok. so the engine dynamics cams need to run with the vvt? i was aware that cat cams made versions for vvt and without vvt. wasnt sure about engine dynamics though.

atleast that way it should keep a half decent idle.

Thanks for the info Fred