Engine rebuild - advice on parts and process

[GrahamS]

Evening chaps

Going to be rebuilding the engine in my cup during a week in May as it's using oil. Picked up a block today from @Mini182 which is going to be the base for it.
I've never built an engine before I'm confident I can do it no problems, just need the right guidance and hoping you can all help.

Parts wise this is what I've got down so far. Let me know if I've missed anything major, the little bits like sump washers I've got laying around. My dephaser is almost new too. Despite the large list I want to keep the parts costs down so recommendations for suppliers would really help out.

Piston rings (can someone recommend a good supplier)
Thrust washers (more on this later)
Big end bearing
Crank bearings
Top end gasket set (head gasket, valve stem seals, exhaust gasket, inlet gaskets)
Head bolts
Bottom end gasket set (sump gasket, crank seals etc)
Cambelt kit
Pulley bolt
Water pump
Cam caps
Key wayed crank pulley
Flywheel bolts
ARP rod bolts
Assembly lube
Plastigauge
197 valve springs

I understand it's all pretty simple but measuring the crank float is crucial to fitting the correct thrust washer. Does anyone have any pics of this process or what tools I'll need to do this. From the crankonwards plastigauge and some feeler gauges will be OK for the piston rings.

Head is going to be kept standard but will check all the valves etc while it's out and swap to the 438's in my 182.

TIA for the help.

Graham

 

[Bluebeard]

FLOL! You crack me up.

"Going to rebuild an engine on my week off, never done it before, how hard can it be...."

Hats off to you mate, you're one clever fucker!

 

[GrahamS]

FLOL! You crack me up.

"Going to rebuild an engine on my week off, never done it before, how hard can it be...."

Hats off to you mate, you're one clever fucker!

I absolutely deliver Daniel!
I actually have 6 weeks off but have allocated this time at the start to get the engine done flat out. All in the preparation!

 

[NorthloopCup]

Get the block measured first. You need to know the bore size because you can't get oversize rings for the standard pistons. I'd also be getting the crank journals measured and if needs be line bored.

Thrust washers are a piece of piss tbh. You have a choice of standard and oversize. Get the oversize, fit them and then try and slide a feeler gauge down the side between the crank and the washer. Too tight? Get a whet stone and rub the washer on it. Retry. Still tight? Same procedure as above.

Cam caps? They're part of the head and cam cover mate.

Main bearing bolts need replacing. Again simple. Get yourself some m10 or m12 cap head high tensile bolts. Done it this way in every engine I've built. They won't let you down.

 

[GrahamS]

Get the block measured first. You need to know the bore size because you can't get oversize rings for the standard pistons. I'd also be getting the crank journals measured and if needs be line bored.

Thrust washers are a piece of piss tbh. You have a choice of standard and oversize. Get the oversize, fit them and then try and slide a feeler gauge down the side between the crank and the washer. Too tight? Get a whet stone and rub the washer on it. Retry. Still tight? Same procedure as above.

Cam caps? They're part of the head and cam cover mate.

Main bearing bolts need replacing. Again simple. Get yourself some m10 or m12 cap head high tensile bolts. Done it this way in every engine I've built. They won't let you down.

Cheer Mark, great info. Pretty certain James had the block measured and it's still 82.7 so standard rings. All other internals will will be from my cup so will be checked when out. I was thinking of trying to get hasting rings from the US.

Remember what size feeler off hand? I've been through all my Clio workshop stuff and can't find anything on the block/crank specs. Ah yes forgot the cap bolts.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Sorry that should read get the main bearing journals in the block measured, not the crank journals!

Get your cam journals measured in the head as well. Exhaust side wears more than the inlet side. This will help to reduce your oil pressure if they're worn. :wink:

 

[GrahamS]

Sorry that should read get the main bearing journals in the block measured, not the crank journals!

Get your cam journals measured in the head as well. Exhaust side wears more than the inlet side. This will help to reduce your oil pressure if they're worn. :wink:

Low oil pressure sounds great! Will check everything. Eventually car's going to have low pressure boost so needs to be strong without trickling oil pressure. 438's will be swapped out again for this though.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Cheer Mark, great info. Pretty certain James had the block measured and it's still 82.7 so standard rings. All other internals will will be from my cup so will be checked when out. I was thinking of trying to get hasting rings from the US.

Remember what size feeler off hand? I've been through all my Clio workshop stuff and can't find anything on the block/crank specs. Ah yes forgot the cap bolts.

I'll dig out some specs for you mate. £12 per piston for standard rings if you know where to go.

I can't stress enough that the measurements I've said to have checked are that important if you want an engine that's going to last.

It's worth getting your oil pump modified as well.

My cold oil pressure on mineral oil is 110psi. You find an f4r that's better than that! Lol!

 

[NorthloopCup]

Low oil pressure sounds great! Will check everything. Eventually car's going to have low pressure boost so needs to be strong without trickling oil pressure. 438's will be swapped out again for this though.

Get the cam journals measured and also the cams that you'll be using at the same time.

 

[NorthloopCup]

@GrahamS here's the clearances mate. This is taken from the R3 maxi engine build manual.

I'd have to dig a bit further for the 172 specs, but they won't be much different.

 

[GrahamS]

@NorthloopCup absolutely perfect mate, thank you!
Just found some specs deep in a document which on first glance match those above.
I'm in no rush for the prep work so will get everything measured properly. Assume this isn't something I can do at home and is best done by a machine shop.
£12! I'm in. Even doing my best finding universal part number can't even get close to that.
Read up on the oil pump and will be modding as you suggest, would be a melon not to whilst it's all being done.

 

[Mini182]

Good to meet you today mate.

You have had some good advice from Mark there, measurements and preperation are the key when rebuilding.

The block was a low mileage one and the bores were checked for size and roundness before honing. As I said the only issue was that slight bit of scooring that the honing couldn't get out. Hopefully it should be ok, but I wasn't comfortable using it in the race car, and as I am not allowed to overbore and use non standard pistons in my class this year it was no good to me.

Thrust washers are fairly easy to lap in.

Mains and big end bearings are easily available. Plastigauge is a great tool for final assembly but should only really be used as an aid, it's no substitute for proper measurements.

Rings you can buy from Renault but they are pretty expensive. Hastings or Maile rings are fine and a lot cheaper.

Gaskets sets use either Renault or a good aftermarket set.

Aftermarket head bolts are fine, and ARP Rod bolts are a no brainer really.

If you need any more advice just me a shout.

 

[Rubicon_]

I thought about building an engine...

I've now read this thread and now confused as fu*k, thanks @NorthloopCup 😂

 

[NorthloopCup]

I thought about building an engine...

I've now read this thread and now confused as fu*k, thanks @NorthloopCup 😂

Lol! My pleasure mate! Honestly though, it's not that difficult providing you understand what you're doing and you measure EVERYTHING.

 

[Rubicon_]

Lol! My pleasure mate! Honestly though, it's not that difficult providing you understand what you're doing and you measure EVERYTHING.

I'm thinking of just getting you to build me one along with a gearbox :wink:

 

[NorthloopCup]

I'm thinking of just getting you to build me one along with a gearbox :wink:

:up:🙈 Lol

 

[Dan@SJM]

Lol! My pleasure mate! Honestly though, it's not that difficult providing you understand what you're doing and you measure EVERYTHING.

And clean. Measure, remeasure and remeasure again. Then clean until it's spotless, then clean again.

 

[GrahamS]

Thanks for the advice everyone. The process has become a lot clearer in my head.
Can these measurements be done by me then or best done by a shop? Micrometers are rather pricey and looks like I'll need at least three.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Thanks for the advice everyone. The process has become a lot clearer in my head.
Can these measurements be done by me then or best done by a shop? Micrometers are rather pricey and looks like I'll need at least three.

Get a shop to do it mate.

 

[Crybert]

I don't know how you guys know this stuff. I know how to change oil and brakes. That's about it!

 

[GrahamS]

Get a shop to do it mate.

Seems to be a pretty good place only down the road from me so will drop some bits there.

I don't know how you guys know this stuff. I know how to change oil and brakes. That's about it!

This is exactly why I love the forum. Huge amount of knowledge!
My first mechcanical job ever before even oil and brakes was putting a new cylinder kit on my 50cc ped 8 years ago (I feel old now) to make it a whopping 72cc. I didn't check any of the measurements, lost one of the tappets in the engine, it went through a valve, out the exhaust. I then just "borrowed" my friends tappet and I continued to run it for 500 miles before there was no compression! Hopefully I'll do this one a bit better.

 

[Z3RO]

This is a gold mine of information.
Well hope it went good for GrahamS.
Since for my new trackday engine I'm thinking about rebuilding myself... Can I ask something too?
First experience on this engines too.. Only done on bike engines..

 

[donnylad]

just read this thread as I am planning on a rebuild within the next year or 2.

Great thread with some good info!

I am trying to find out the full costs a of a rebuild, any chance you remember what it was roughly Graham? PM me if you dont mind letting me know

 

[RS#YORKSHIRE]

just read this thread as I am planning on a rebuild within the next year or 2.

Great thread with some good info!

I am trying to find out the full costs a of a rebuild, any chance you remember what it was roughly Graham? PM me if you dont mind letting me know

I’ve had two engine rebuilds on my Clio 182 first was a cost of £1800 and the second was £2800 but that was with forged pistons rods and everything else. You from Doncaster?

 

[donnylad]

I’ve had two engine rebuilds on my Clio 182 first was a cost of £1800 and the second was £2800 but that was with forged pistons rods and everything else. You from Doncaster?

yes mate

I dont know what to do, the car is used for work and back, around 80 miles a week. then I will do prob 10 sprints plus a few practice days in one year etc.

The belts are due next year, it uses oil, not a massive amount but I do top it up probably every 2-3 weeks, but it is always warmed up, used hard and cooled etc.

I am thinking of either getting the belts done next year and leaving it at that, or leaving it until something goes bang on it, and doing a full rebuild.

If the belts lasted 2 years before something fecked up I could put some money aside to be able to get it done etc.

I have been looking at engine dynamics engines, although there expensive they are probably very good?

also PMS

I saw one that says 240bhp, is this still the 172 engine? not sure if it would change my sprinting class etc from road going production.

http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/clio-2-ph2172/clio-2-ph2172-engine/clio-2-rs-pm-240-engine-kit.html

 

[bozothenutter]

i think the PMS engine is 15K?
good thread though....want to do this someday.