Impove performance. Eureka?!

[Den]

I had this idea; just don't know if this will work properly.

I don't think it's been done before, so, if this idea sounds like reinventing a bicycle...

So, I was thinking of improving performance for my Clio 1.2 16V.
It's not the most powerful engine, but I recon some more that 75 horses can be extracted out of it.

The supercharger. Installing one would sound really ridiculous. But here is what I thought.

If the supercharger blows more air into the cylinder that means that more oxygen can burn, therefore increasing combustion power.
What if instead of blowing that air I used a balloon with oxygen directed into air intake?

I would see this like that:
In a Clio 1.2 there is lots of space under the bonnet, therefore a balloon with oxygen would fit inside. A pipe from the balloon can be directed into the air intake up to the air filter. When the oxygen is being released, more fuel can burn and the output power should increase.

In the end, it should work similar to the supercharger, as the end result is more oxygen being pumped into the combustion cylinders.

Also, I believe, this would increase fuel economy and driving performance.

An obvious problem for this is where you can get oxygen. I'd like to point out that we don't need any pure oxygen used in hospitals that is given for the patients. Industrial oxygen should really do. It's pure enough, and is much cheaper!

What do you think about it, as I'm having sleepless nights thinking about this idea...

 

[fmp_]

oh dear....

so basically you have come up with the idea of a NOS system only using something thats a lot more flammable stored in fricking balloon!

 

[LegoHead]

Air has oxygen i think, but why dont you get a bottle instead of a balloon and replace oxygen with NO2?

Better still, fart into the air intake.....:rasp:

 

[renaultman]

I had this idea; just don't know if this will work properly.

I don't think it's been done before, so, if this idea sounds like reinventing a bicycle...

So, I was thinking of improving performance for my Clio 1.2 16V.
It's not the most powerful engine, but I recon some more that 75 horses can be extracted out of it.

The supercharger. Installing one would sound really ridiculous. But here is what I thought.

If the supercharger blows more air into the cylinder that means that more oxygen can burn, therefore increasing combustion power.
What if instead of blowing that air I used a balloon with oxygen directed into air intake?

I would see this like that:
In a Clio 1.2 there is lots of space under the bonnet, therefore a balloon with oxygen would fit inside. A pipe from the balloon can be directed into the air intake up to the air filter. When the oxygen is being released, more fuel can burn and the output power should increase.

In the end, it should work similar to the supercharger, as the end result is more oxygen being pumped into the combustion cylinders.

Also, I believe, this would increase fuel economy and driving performance.

An obvious problem for this is where you can get oxygen. I'd like to point out that we don't need any pure oxygen used in hospitals that is given for the patients. Industrial oxygen should really do. It's pure enough, and is much cheaper!

What do you think about it, as I'm having sleepless nights thinking about this idea...

lol so its more or less an ecotek valve . try it see what happens but not a ballon might pop some think thicker .. exta safe ? lol

 

[MrMark]

KABOOOM! lol

 

[Den]

Air has oxygen i think, but why dont you get a bottle instead of a balloon and replace oxygen with NO2?

Better still, fart into the air intake.....:rasp:

Air consists mainly of 78% of nitrogen and 21% of oxygen, and ~1% of other gases.
Molar ration is 4:1 nitrogenxygen.

In every combustion there is a lot of nitrogen which doen't do anything, and only oxygen that makes fuel to burn.

And NO2 will make the nitrus effect, isn't it?
O2 is cheaper and easier to get. It'd also reduce emission I believe...

 

[LegoHead]

Air has oxygen i think, but why dont you get a bottle instead of a balloon and replace oxygen with NO2?

Better still, fart into the air intake.....:rasp:

Air consists mainly of 78% of nitrogen and 21% of oxygen, and ~1% of other gases.
Molar ration is 4:1 nitrogenxygen.

In every combustion there is a lot of nitrogen which doen't do anything, and only oxygen that makes fuel to burn.

lol. thanks for educating me. Did also know that your idea was a silly one? No offence, most brilliant inventions start as crack pot ideas.

i meant N2O , oooops. Will this have any effect on combustion?

 

[Den]

lol. thanks for educating me. Did also know that your idea was a silly one? No offence, most brilliant inventions start as crack pot ideas.

Yeah, it sounds silly to you while you drive 172...
I don't want to educate you, just wanted some advice from people who know something about this stuff, and not just make jokes...

I also don't want to offend you mate, but what silly did you find in this idea?

 

[mini-valver]

The fact that your going to be putting a baloon under your bonnet is silly! You'd be able to use it for like 5 seconds then have to stop and blow it back up again, lunacy.
Maybe a direct purge coming from a tank in the boot but even then its stupid and surely your ecu wouldnt be able to cope with the ratio of fuel that would need to be supplied?

 

[Den]

I don't really know about nitogen dioxides and monoxides... I would like to use them, as most nitrus-oxygen components are poisonous, such as:
N2O5, NO2

N2O sounds more promissing, just the problem is that it has to be mixed with fuel in specific proportions, otherwise it wouldn't work properly. Where oxygen doen't need to be mixed - it's just pure burning environment.

 

[Den]

The fact that your going to be putting a baloon under your bonnet is silly! You'd be able to use it for like 5 seconds then have to stop and blow it back up again, lunacy.
Maybe a direct purge coming from a tank in the boot but even then its stupid and surely your ecu wouldnt be able to cope with the ratio of fuel that would need to be supplied?

I understand that putting something under the bonnet sounds pretty stupid, but under bonnet of 1.2 16V you can fit few cats! LOL
A balloon can deffinatelly be securelly fitted with the capacity of 8-10Liters easily. The flow doesn't have to be on full throttle. I know that a balloon of 4Liters on full throttle can be used for 20-30min.
A 10 liter baloon on half throttle can last for hours...

 

[LegoHead]

Have you ever watched the fast and the furious? A good starting point for research into the effects of N20

 

[mini-valver]

The fact that your going to be putting a baloon under your bonnet is silly! You'd be able to use it for like 5 seconds then have to stop and blow it back up again, lunacy.
Maybe a direct purge coming from a tank in the boot but even then its stupid and surely your ecu wouldnt be able to cope with the ratio of fuel that would need to be supplied?

I understand that putting something under the bonnet sounds pretty stupid, but under bonnet of 1.2 16V you can fit few cats! LOL
A balloon can deffinatelly be securelly fitted with the capacity of 8-10Liters easily. The flow doesn't have to be on full throttle. I know that a balloon of 4Liters on full throttle can be used for 20-30min.
A 10 liter baloon on half throttle can last for hours...

If you could fit it in you have to think of the effects on te fueling and wether the ecu can control the fuel ratio not to mention the damage you'd do if it couldnt as the mixture would be so lean! Do it if you fancy holey pistons.....

 

[bigmonmulgrew]

Really you would want a pressurised container, not a balloon. I have considered this before. The problem is you dont want to just randomly pump in as much oxygen as you can. You need to regulate it. This would require a system similar to a nos kit. OR you could get a pressurised bottle with a variable pressure valve. Run the hose to just behind the air filter. then adjust the valve to allow more or less oxygen in until you get peak power. (probable be very difficult to get it accurate without a dyno) You may want to uprate your fule pressure regulator though (about £70 from hill power I believe) so it can take more oxygen without running lean.

 

[Den]

Yes, i meant a pressured unit, not a rubber balloon, I just didn't know how it's called.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-BOAC-...oryZ2983QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
That's what I had in mind:

 

[mini-valver]

Theres so many variables that would need to be taken into account, really isnt worth it TBH. Better sticking to tried and tested!

 

[Cookie]

Theres so many variables that would need to be taken into account, really isnt worth it TBH. Better sticking to tried and tested!

The old buy a faster car and stop being a tit route?

 

[fmp_]

its still a NOS/N2O kit, just with something different in the bottle!

 

[Andy]

Well, if nothing else you will win the Darwin Award this year.

 

[fmp_]

Well, if nothing else you will win the Darwin Award this year.

lol!! i forgot about the Darwin Award!

 

[BenR]

I don't really know about nitogen dioxides and monoxides... I would like to use them, as most nitrus-oxygen components are poisonous, such as:
N2O5, NO2

N2O sounds more promissing, just the problem is that it has to be mixed with fuel in specific proportions, otherwise it wouldn't work properly. Where oxygen doen't need to be mixed - it's just pure burning environment.

And there within lies your problem.

Fuel oxidises, the rate of which using atmo air is controlled, and it is the same reason N20 is used. The nitrogen isnt just there for no reason, the disassociation of N20 into N and O2 absorbs ALOT of energy, allowing a progressive burn rather than a hell for leather explosion. There is a known ratio of fuel to N20 to use and people have been playing with it for decades, so its nothing new. Even the use of such a 'low' oxygen content requires careful control and management to prevent massive failure.

Using oxygen along will result in one almightly explosion if you used additional fuel to generate a complete burn, and one melted engine if you were not to correct at all and bleed in a 'small amount'.

A friend once tried it on a lawnmower and sent the head about 30m down the garden.

 

[vavazoom]

i still think the leaf blower ramd in the intake!is the best lol:evil:

 

[GordonD]

At full throttle a Clio Sport engine uses 2 litres of air every 2 revs. At 6,000 rpm its going to use 6,000 litres of air per minute. That amount of air contains 1260 litres of oxygen. That's how much oxygen you'd have to have in the balloon/tank just to produce the same power a Clio Sport could for 1 minute.

Now a quarter mile only takes 15 seconds for a standard Clio Sport, so in that case we're only talking about 315 litres of oxygen. That's a substantial but not huge amount.

And if you fed pure oxygen into the engine the amount required would be far less than the amount of air required, so for a given throttle body and valve size you could get 5 times as much oxygen into the engine if it was in the form of pure oxygen than if it was air. So theoretically you could produce five times as much power as if the car was running on air even if the oxygen was only at air pressure, as it would be if it was in a balloon. A 2 litre Clio engine running on oxygen would be the equivalent of a 10 litre engine running on air.

So as silly as Den's idea sounds its actually practicable and possible to get a fantastic quarter mile time out of a relatively unmodified car by getting oxygen, letting it escape into a balloon in the boot/back seat area, connecting the balloon to the engine's air intake with a section of induction-system sized flexible pipe, and letting the engine inhale that rather than air.

Of course there's lots of ifs and buts and caveats. You couldn't actually produce 5 times as much power without breaking something in the engine, but you could practically get, say, something in the order of 40-50% more, which would get your quarter mile time down to something like mid-13 seconds. More power means more fuel is required. More power means more torque means broken drive train. And you couldn't feed the engine directly from a small hidden compressed oxygen tank, you'd have to release it into something like a weather balloon first, because even compressed oxygen wouldn't flow fast enough out of the valve in a tank to feed an engine fast enough to produce a lot of power. And the big one that over much more distance than that the whole idea becomes impracticable because of the volume of oxygen required.

 

[BenR]

Trust me, there are plenty and iffs and but's.

You would use liquid o2, not compressed, so flowing enough isnt an issue.

Blowing it to smitherines will be though.

And if you only bleed a little so that it wont, then you'll get more power out of running N20, which is safer to store and use. O2 in your care in compressed form is asking for insta-death if you crash, or if there is a leak near any ignition source.

 

[Kneel]

A stupid point, but would it also be a not great idea storing it under the bonnet due to the heat from the engine. aside from the obvious possibility of you're car exploding, engines prefer cold air to hot air...

 

[BenR]

stored liquid oxy wont get hot as it is sored under pressure and will have extreemly low temps when it is released.

 

[Den]

Green peace :butt:

 

[Den]

Good ideas!

(sorry about previous post, it wasn't me posting...)

Gordon made good points that a lot of oxygen is required. But my initiel idea was to feed the engine with a small amount of oxygen.

If O2 concentration in air is about 21%, then with the help of additional oxygen I pushed it up to ~ 30-40% in the air filter. Therefore the power should increase for about 20%. I understand if I fed the engine with 99% of oxygen, it wouldn't take long time to melt it down, and phone the insurance company and say that aliens melted the engine... LOL

Keeping the tanker under the bonnet deffinatelly make a huge H&S issue for me and other road users. And if placing it into the boot will be too inconveniente.

This O2 idea is plausable I suppese, just it need the right approach to comlete it. Then you'd get a modifaction which legaly is not a modifaction at all!

 

[BenR]

its plausable, but for the pointless effort you'll never beat the gains of nitrous.

If it was better, then there would be countless drag racers using it as they have sole classes dedicated to injection of nitrous and bracket racing.

 

[Peperami]

Hairdryer attatched to front grille? Or lots of those little pocket fans...

 

[GordonD]

Well, if we're talking merely plausible ways of getting bursts of higher power, yes, there's nitrous oxide. Its an oxidiser, ie, the equivalent of air with more oxygen in it, so you have to increase the amount of fuel being delivered too. But don't forget nitromethane. Its a fuel that requires less oxygen, so you can inject a small quantity of it in addition to your petrol and get a significant power increase. And, well, if you're suicidal you blend nitromethane and hydrazine (an oxidiser) and add a bit of that at full throttle. It is literally rocket fuel. It requires no oxygen at all.

 

[BenR]

3 fuels, all with differing required AFR's and MBT, burn rates will be all over the place.

 

[john182rs]

i say let her/him do it an if we see it in the papers as "Kid with clio explodes in bid for more power from oxygen balloon" then we know its not to be done but is he/she manages it then good on them your blue peter badge is on its way...
Or just get a bigger engine car.

 

[Neil G]

Air has oxygen i think, but why dont you get a bottle instead of a balloon and replace oxygen with NO2?

Better still, fart into the air intake.....:rasp:

lol at the last comment

 

[182 TURBO]

Oh Dear Oh Dear Lol

 

[172boost]

Mate just buy a f**king rs! For the money you spend on this project you could buy one and insure it!!!

 

[bigmonmulgrew]

its plausable, but for the pointless effort you'll never beat the gains of nitrous.

If it was better, then there would be countless drag racers using it as they have sole classes dedicated to injection of nitrous and bracket racing.

I would think the reason oxygen is not used is because the power delivery would be to hard to control. In theory its great. But as you said it will probably melt your engine or give you poor results as compared to NOS. Finding and sustaining that sweet spot would be virtually imposible

 

[bigmonmulgrew]

alright how about this. how much more oxygen does adding forced induction add?

 

[BenR]

you increase density with FI, the other components are still there to dampen the burn rate.

Pure exygen WILL explode, period.