Is this a good sub/amp combo

[White16valver]

Hi all,

due to my feckwit, dunderf*ck brother throwing his (not inconsiderable) weight around, and threatening to get the exs car nicked as she still has the amp that he gave to me (apparently gifts have conditions attached now... ), Im looking to buy a replacement sub, box and amp so he can stick his poxy present up his arse.

Having read a few magazines and looked around I quite fancy the following:

Sub - JL Audio 10W3, 250wrms, Revs best buy May 2003, around £179.99

Amp - a Rockford Fosgate Jobbie - Punch 300S (300wrms bridged) £160ish OR Punch 200S (200wrms bridged) £140ish.

What do yall reckon? Id need a box as well so how much would a decent, correct sized box cost? I could probably do the calculations myself for the size, given the equations and relevant sub info, but my woodwork leaves a lot to be desired!

I was on the understanding it was better to have an amp that was slightly too powerful (hence the 300S) rather than underpower the sub but RFs usually make more than the stated figures dont they? (hence the 200S!)

Opinions please! I want good volume AND sound quality and preferably under £500...

Cheers, Paul.

 

[^adam^]

good choice of equipment mate, whats in the rest of your system?

for the sub, make sure you go for the dual 2 ohm version so that you can wire the sub to show the amp a 4 ohm load.

amp wise, both good amps, but it would be better if you go for the 300S, rated at 300rms bridged but more like up to 350rms, dont worry about the sub, JLs can usually take alot more than they are rated, the 10W3 can probably take around 350-400.

box wise, i would make it yourself, leaves you with more money for equipment!

remember to budget for wires etc. if you have some components or co-axes in the car, why not go for a 4 channel amp so that you can run the fronts off 2 channels, and bridge the other 2 channels for the sub? just a thought, will sound much much better than having fronts run off a head unit,.

HTH

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[White16valver]

Well, good to see that my virtual shopping is well picked!

The rest of the exs system in her valver is (I think) standard speakers (they have blue cones though, so aftermarket?) and an alpine head unit and (broken) CD changer. Currently she has the present to me from my pain-in-the-arse brother, a ported box with 10" Kenwood sub (blue coned thing) and cheapo amp (longmill perhaps?) He says it was the best part of £500 but I cant see how...

Anyway - dual 2 Ohm version? 4 Ohm load? Durrrr... I assume you mean get a dual-2Ohm-voice-coil sub then wire it in series to show 4 Ohms to the Amp? Will the Dual version be more £?

I was tempted to get the 300S amp anyway so youve merely backed up my choice! The ex isnt a bass-maniac so wont be ramping it up to its full whack anyway. I get the bit about bridging it as the amps usually have it marked so you cant muck it up. No need for a four-channel as I dont think the other speakers would take it! Plus, theyre a bit more money...

Wires should be okay as Ill just leave whats there (not faffing about pulling power wires through the bulkhead and under trim) and give bruv some cash on top. Should shut him up.

Im only a complete novice to this ICE stuff so I hope its ok so far!

 

[^adam^]

give him a max of £100 for the other stuff, the stuff you are about to buy is a class above the rubbish that you got at the mo, will put a on your face!

 

[White16valver]

Hopefully...

Am I right about the voice-coil thing? Im not that good at all this!



With a bit of luck the above set-up should shake bits off the car and make your eyeballs wobble... (Well, a bit!)

 

[White16valver]

Just had a quick look at http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/shop/acatalog/CAD_10_inch__25cm__134.htmlhttp://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/shop/acatalog/CAD_10_inch__25cm__134.html

Too many choices! Dual voice coil is the one - but differences between dual 2-ohm, dual 4-ohm and dual 6-ohm are?

Help!

 

[Evil ICE]

The different voicecoil configurations just make it possible to match an amp at its best impedance so that you can get the optimum performance out of it. For example a dual 2ohm sub wired in parallel will show an amp a 1ohm load..wired in series it will show 4 ohms. If you show a 2ohm stable amp a 1ohm load it will either go into protection or possibly even blow up.

If i could make a suggestion. Instead of going for a 300S. Why not go for a 500X for £175 and then a dual 4ohm version of the W3. Then you can wire it in parallel to show the amp a 2ohm bridged load. The Rockford will run stable down to that load unlike most amps out there.

That system will give you around 400 watts RMS to the sub and youll have another couple of channels to play with if you want to connect some speakers or another W3 in the future.

I think it will work out better value and have better upgradeability than the other options.

Russ

Evil I.C.E. Car Audio

 

[ak16v]

If you want a phat amp I recommend a hifioncs zeus 5 channel amp with 700w, itll run your whole setup. I have one it has a built in crossover and bare other sh*t. Got mine from ebay from some american outlet, cost about £270 with the dreaded duty an vat charges

But sayin that you aint gonna find a better amp for the price around here brand new!!

 

[White16valver]

"The different voicecoil configurations just make it possible to match an amp at its best impedance so that you can get the optimum performance out of it. For example a dual 2ohm sub wired in parallel will show an amp a 1ohm load..wired in series it will show 4 ohms. If you show a 2ohm stable amp a 1ohm load it will either go into protection or possibly even blow up.

If i could make a suggestion. Instead of going for a 300S. Why not go for a 500X for £175 and then a dual 4ohm version of the W3. Then you can wire it in parallel to show the amp a 2ohm bridged load. The Rockford will run stable down to that load unlike most amps out there.

That system will give you around 400 watts RMS to the sub and youll have another couple of channels to play with if you want to connect some speakers or another W3 in the future."

So... going from this info, would it be ideal to buy a dual 4Ohm sub (250wrms rated) and run it in parallel, matched to a RF Punch 301M (mono) amp - this would give a 2Ohm load to the amp (yes?), and run the amp at 300wrms @ 2Ohm, as this page says it can do:

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/shop/acatalog/CAD_mono_82.htmlhttp://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/shop/acatalog/CAD_mono_82.html

From what I can remember of physics (which is not a lot!), dont you get more power running in parallel because the resistance is lower? This would be backed up by the above mono amp being 150wrms @ 4Ohm and 300wrms @ 2Ohm wouldnt it? Arrgh, this gets confusing!

If I was to go with the 300S and bridge it to 300wrms @ 4Ohm, wouldnt my sub options be a 2Ohm Dual voicecoil in series or an 8Ohm dual voicecoil in parallel (which they dont do)?

Bloody hell, I remember now why Im not really into my ICE! Too much brain-melting stuff! Im not sure the 500/501X amp is necessary, as the Ex isnt that into her ICE - I just want to get her a simple to use (if thats possible!), powerful, good quality sub and amp combo - anything like running other channels for mids etc will be a bit wasted on her! Plus, it doesnt say the 501X can run bridged at 2Ohm?

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/shop/acatalog/CAD_Multi_Channel_81.htmlhttp://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/shop/acatalog/CAD_Multi_Channel_81.html

Durrr....... I feel thick!

Cheers for all you help guys - keep it coming!

 

[Bryan]

IMHO you could find a much better amp than the Rockford Fosgate one, both in terms of quality and quantity

the choice of sub coulb be a good one but it all depends on the set-up of the system, even the best subs can sound sh|t if not set up properly

 

[Evil ICE]

Weve never had any problems with Rockford amps. The sound quality on some of the amps is an aquired taste but if you are running a sub with it then it doesnt really matter.

If you were thinking of running a 250M or 301M then you would be best having a dual 4 ohm sub to show the amp a 2ohm load. However the 500x will give you around 400 watts RMS into the sub making the bass tighter and louder for an extra £15...plus you get an extra 2 channels for future upgrades. If you dont use them it doesnt matter as they are pretty much free anyway.

Rockford dont quote power figures at 2ohm bridged but you can run a lot of their amps underload without any problems. For instance the bd500.1 is only quoted at 600watts RMS into a 2ohm load but will run at 1ohm all day long without even getting warm...running it like that gives you nearly double the power. Our demo car has been using a couple of the bd500.1s running at 1ohm for at least a year without any problems.

Russ

 

[White16valver]

bambam – what would you recommend? I’m only going for the RF’s because they seem like a good quality set-up who quote no bullsh!t power figures – I’m fed up with people going “look! A 1000watt amp!” when it’s actually only 250wrms…


Evil-Ice – cheers for all your help. Assuming I take you up on your suggestion of a 500x/501x with JL10W3 dual 4-Ohm voicecoil sub to run off the amp at 2-Ohm bridged, what sort of price could you do? And could you get a box for the sub? As I said before, given the equation and relevant figures, I could probably work it out myself but my DIY skills are pants – I know you *should* have a perfectly matched box for the sub to make it the best it can be, but would an off the shelf jobbie sound that bad? I’m just thinking about cost, as special-order boxes can’t be that cheap… It would have to be ported wouldnt it, as sealed boxes are HUGE from what I remember?

 

[Evil ICE]

The 10W3 will work best in a sealed box which dont need to be as big as a ported box. I would say a 0.75 cuft box will sound good. Off the shelf boxes arent too much of a problem when running sealed as long as you get roughly the right size.

I would say go for the 500x opver the 501x as they are basically the same amp with a couple of small differences except the 501x is a fair bit more expensive.

Our prices are as follows:

10W3V2 + 10" 0.75cuft box - £175.99

Rockford Fosgate 500x - £175

Total Price = £350.99

Russ

 

[^adam^]

isnt the 500x the old model, and the 501x the new model?

Also, if the amp is the punch series amp, i would reccomend you get the dual 2 ohm sub, and wire it to show the amp a 4 ohm load as i wouldnt reccomend running the punch series amps at a 2 ohm mono load,

if you get the power series amp, then you can get the dual 4 ohm sub to show the amp a 2 ohm mono load, then u will get more power,

hope that helps u understand

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[Evil ICE]

The 500x is the old model yes but when its only £175 compared to £240 for what is basically the same amp with a different heatsink and a slightly different crossover, i know which one I would go for.

Even the punch series will run down to 2ohm mono. We have done 4 systems with that setup running various subs off them and never had any problems with overheating or going into protection etc.

Russ

 

[White16valver]

Ever get the feeling you wished you hadnt started something?

But seriously, cheers for all your help peeps - Im now going to attempt to work out my best option!

Thanks again,

Paul.

 

[White16valver]

Right. Im seriously tempted by your offer Evil ICE but first, a few more queries/irritating questions to clarify things!

http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/pdfs/10W3v2_MAN.pdfhttp://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/pdfs/10W3v2_MAN.pdf

This shortcut shows the adobe acrobat version of the JL Owners Manual for the 10W3v2 subs. (I couldnt get it on my home computer as I havent got adobe, but had a look at work!) Helpful diagrams on the wiring explain to muppets like me the effects of different wiring set-ups, so I have no issue with running a dual 4 Ohm VoiceCoil in parallel to show 2 Ohms to the Amp. (I trust you re: running a 500x bridged at 2 Ohms - If it fries, Im coming to pay you a visit! )

On page 3 of the link its got a full run down of ideal enclosure sizes for the different subs, both sealed and ported. It seems a 0.75cuft sealed box would be spot-on perfect for a 10W3v2-D6 (dual 6 Ohm coils), but thats irrelevant as it wouldnt match the amp. A box of that size is slap-bang in the middle of the suitable sealed-box size for the sub (as detailed on http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/10w3v2.htmlhttp://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/10w3v2.html) so Ill go with you that itll sound ok. Im sure it only really makes a difference if youre doing competition level stuff anyway! Would it be worth going for a ported box though? Ive read that itd be a bit louder? It does seem a bit like hard work sorting out port lengths though...

Or, do you do a 0.62(5)cuft sealed box for 10"? This is whats on page 3 of the first link as recommended for the 10W3v2-D4. Ive had a quick look around and AutoAcoustics only do a 0.75 or 0.66cuft box for sealed 10s, so I imagine theyre the standard sizes? Would a 0.66cuft box be better than a 0.75? Should I try to get a 0.62cuft box made up? (AA do that size but in a 12")

Or, (as I suspect!) am I just getting my knickers in a twist (not literally!!) over something thats going to make pretty near to feck-all difference?

Ive rambled for long enough anyway - take your head off the desk and tell me what you reckon!

Cheers, Paul.

 

[White16valver]

P.S. apologies for that incessantly long post...

 

[Evil ICE]

I dont think you need to worry too much about the different box sizes were talking about. There really wont be much difference between all 3 of them. A 0.75cuft box will allow the sub to move well so youll get good SQ and some nice quality low bass.

As far as the 500x amp goes. I dont run them at 2ohm personally as I have a couple of bd500.1s instead but weve installed a few (as well as one going in a car today) that has used the amp at 2ohm bridged. Ive never seen any problems doing it like that. However if the amp does die a death then we can always work another option out for you as we will cover it under warranty.

Russ

 

[White16valver]

Sounds good. Whats the warranty like? I read that JL cover their subs for 90days automatically dont they, going up to a year if the dealer stamps something? How long am I looking at for an amp warranty?

Im happy to go with the 0.75cuft box with 10W3v2 dvc 4-Ohm sub and a 500x amp bridged to 2-Ohm, and £350 is a good price too. Is that delivered too?! Dont suppose you would throw in a bit of decent cable too would ya?

Cheers again, O Font of Knowledge!

 

[Evil ICE]

The warranty is 12 months RTB. If it blows due to being overloaded its difficult to tell.

£350 is the price without delivery unfortunately. It would be an extra £20 for delivery as it will weight quite a bit. Ill chuck a metre of 4mm sub cable in though if you like.

Cheers

Russ

 

[White16valver]

"If it blows due to being overloaded its difficult to tell. "

Argh! You cant say that! What if it does blow?! Im putting my trust in your greater knowledge! I dont want a useless lump of metal and plastic left after it goes bang!

£20 delivery sounds reasonable though and the sub cable would be great

 

[Evil ICE]

If it does blow we can replace it within 2 days. Then its our problem whether we can claim the cash back from Rockford.

Im testing a 500x fully over the weekend to see if we can make it a permenant 2ohm bridged recomended amp. If you want me to let you know the results before you make any decisions the I can do.

Russ

 

[^adam^]

russ,

its been tested before, usually the power range of amps hold up under a 2 ohm mono load, but the punch range is touch and go.

the power range are quite a bit better than the punch range, better crossovers, but components inside etc which means it can hold up.



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[Evil ICE]

The reason that we want to test it is that we are planning on putting together a couple of cheap package deals using the 500x with a number of different subs. Well be testing all the package combinations this weekend before we recommend that people run them at 2ohm mono...just in case.

Over the past year we have had 100% reliability from all of our products with nothing coming back for repair or refund...we just want to make sure that we can keep up the record.

Russ

 

[^adam^]

thats a good idea!

remember that RF are underated, so you can get a lot of wattage out of them at 2 ohm mono!

i used to have an old 800a4, that was rated at 4x100 rms! it put out more like 4x125 rms! was a great amp, i wish i never sold it, i never could bring myself to run it at 2 ohm mono, but i reckon if i did, i would have got 800rms out of two bridged channels!

 

[White16valver]

Evil Ice - sounds like a plan, Stan!

Let me know how the testing goes. Fingers crossed it all goes to plan, eh? Are you gonna be logging what sort of power itll be putting out too? Just to get an idea, like...

 

[Evil ICE]

The testing should be finished on Sunday so ill let you know asap.

Unfortunately we dont have any equipment to test the actual output of an amp. However i will list the subs that we have tried on the amp, whether it passed or failed (and on what if needs be) and the performance on particular tracks. I would think the amp will be pushing between 380 and 450watts RMS per 2 channels...which is a fair few.

We will be testing some seriously heavy bass tracks on the amp for long periods of time. At the moment I think well be using 2 music track as well as 20Hz, 45Hz and 70Hz test frequencies off a FUEL CD.

Lets see what happens.

Russ

 

[Bryan]

Quote: Originally posted by White16valver on 12 May 2003

bambam – what would you recommend? I’m only going for the RF’s because they seem like a good quality set-up who quote no bullsh!t power figures – I’m fed up with people going “look! A 1000watt amp!” when it’s actually only 250wrms…

i am running an audison LRx1.400 which prouced 350WRMS @ 4ohm and 600WRMS @ 2ohm

these amps, although quite expensive are awesome quality

if i were to reomment an amp, it would be made by Phoenix Gold, there amp are quite simply one of the most complete i have ever heard

 

[Leigh]

If your looking at getting 12" JL W3 then I have got one for sale !!

Just been upgraded to a 12" JL W6 V2 !!

 

[White16valver]

Hmm... Ill let you know...

 

[White16valver]

How did the tests go Evil ICE?

 

[White16valver]

Doh - just seen your other post!