ClioSport.net

Register a free account today to become a member!
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission. Read more here.

Loss of power after 4.5k



  Monaco 172
My 2002 172 has developed a problem today...

It'll accelerate as it normally does up to about 4500 rpm, after that the engine usually accelerates very hard up to the limiter - not today, after about 4500 rpm it feels like it's really struggling to accelerate and I dare not take it much past 5000 rpm. This is happening in all gears. The car sounds fine, idles fine it just has a massive loss of power.

The cam and aux belts were changed about 10 months ago by Birchdown, its just had an oil and oil filter change and just passed it's MOT.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks
 
  Renaultsport Clio 172
Can be the VVT solenoid not working, it has to switch from 5,250/5,300 onwards (hence the kick we all get at that point), if it aint then the car will be off its power.

If you know someone with an RSTuner you can plug it and test that solenoid, should click several times when testing. THis is really the only explanation I would fine for it to struggle in the upper range
 
  Monaco 172
I don't know anyone with an RS tuner unfortunately. Is this an expensive item to replace if needs be?
 
  PH1 172 Sport
Can be the VVT solenoid not working, it has to switch from 5,250/5,300 onwards (hence the kick we all get at that point), if it aint then the car will be off its power.

If you know someone with an RSTuner you can plug it and test that solenoid, should click several times when testing. THis is really the only explanation I would fine for it to struggle in the upper range


VVT switches at 1800rpm from memory. The 5k kick has nothing to do with VVT.

I'm not sure what the OP's fault could be maybe the coilpack?
 
  S4 Avant
Can be the VVT solenoid not working, it has to switch from 5,250/5,300 onwards (hence the kick we all get at that point), if it aint then the car will be off its power.

Biggest myth going!

It's just the throttle body opening more, past 5000 revs. More fuel & air = more power
 
  Monaco 172
thanks for the responses, is the coilpack a big operation if it needs replacing?

also i'm needing to drive my car to work tomorrow, if it's the coil pack will this be safe?
 
  PH1 172 Sport
Biggest myth going!

It's just the throttle body opening more, past 5000 revs. More fuel & air = more power

Also Rubbish this is the real explanation:

172 5k kick by BenR 2006

By no means is the 5k kick the result of any mechanical/electronic chance withing the engine system, whether that be mapping paremeters or valve timing.

I think to fully understand, a base understanding of the operating system of the vvt is needed. The vvt system employed on the clio is what we refer to as cam phasing, this is where the whole camshaft (inlet or exhaust or both) is advanced/retarded. This can be in a single step as it is in the clio (single stage 16 degree advance on the inlet), or variable. The camshaft is hollow and is used as a galley to feed the front pulley (called a phaser) with oil pressure, this pressure simply acts on vanes inside to rotate it in a desired direction, and returned under mechanical pressure. The cam does not always carry oil pressure, but a vvt switch is used, and is basically a plunder activated by 12 (grounded by the ecu (a lowside switch)) which allows the passing of oil from the lifter galley to an area of the cam bearings with holes that can feed the inside of the cam, which then passes through to the nose of the cam and into the pulley (phaser).

Variable setups (like the new 197) will use the same base components as what is used today, but instead of the vvt plunger being used as a switch, the same plunger has the ability to open and bypass oil to either side of the vanes in the phaser. By using a PWM signal, you can gain full control of the phaser to advance the cam in a near infinately variable curve vs rpm vs manifold pressure vs throttle angle etc.

Honda's Vtec system is a cam 'changing' system where the actual cam profile is changed in its entirety (hence the 3 lobes per cylinder), the actual 'timing' of the primary lobe remains the same at all times. And now with I-Vtec and VVTL-i the benefits of both phasing and changing is being used at the same time to build some monster VE (volumetric efficiency) curves.

Anyway, in the clio the cam sits in its dephased state until the required parameters are met. This is above 1450rpm and 800mb manifold pressure. When it is required though, the cam is phased and the cam timing effectively advances 16 degrees, at 6800rpm it is dephased again and power drops off like a stone. No official reason, but my thoughts are that they do it so you guys shift up once there is a loss of acceleration. The reason for that is because the stock pistons just fall apart with prolongned high rpm use.

The 5k kick is the result of a few natural phenomenons within the engine. At 5000-ish rpm VE suddenly reaches a higher %'age and the resultant torque increase gives you that wahey feeling. VE increases due to the cam comming 'on'. This term has nothing to do with VVT and is quite an old term, whereby the reference is to the rpm region that particualr engine/cam combo requires to process the valve timing events efficiently.

VE refers to volumetric efficiency, or the %'age of the cylinder that you can fill with fresh charge. For a 2ltr, thats 500cc per cylinder. If you can only fill that cylinder with 430cc's at peak efficiency (normally at peak torque point) thats 86% VE. The higher the VE on any engine, the higher the torque output at that specific RPM, and all engine tuning revolves around increasing or rather sustaining a good VE for as long as possible, and upto as high an rpm as possible.

Anyway, back on track. The clio with its advanced cam timing (phased) operates with an overlap value that is larger than when it is dephased (infact it has no overlap when depahsed). This overlap is part of cam design basics, and larger overlap periods are used to help generate higher VE's via scavenging and inertia ramming. At 5000 rpm the natural effects of the port velocity and pulse tuning al reach a level where they start to actively enhance the torque production with the valve timing it is running. Put in a wilder cam and it will push the 'kick' higher up if nothing else changes, but lower rpm efficiency will loose out, and peak power will be pushed up the rpm scale, along with a higher peak bhp figure. To an extent, there will be a point where you can go wilder on the cam and just loose out everywhere as the engine system as a whole does not work with the cam profile you are running.

Not very clear sorry, basis is that the 5k kick is the result of natural phenomenons within the engine, primarily port velocities and pulse tuning harmonics.
 
  PH1 172 Sport
thanks for the responses, is the coilpack a big operation if it needs replacing?

also i'm needing to drive my car to work tomorrow, if it's the coil pack will this be safe?

After a think I'm not sure it would be the coil pack as that would affect the whole rev range. Could be an engine sensor, fuel pump, blocked fuel filter etc. Have you tried a search?
 
  ITB'd MK1
the kick is there because the fueling is kept lean due to emmisions regs until that point. you get some fuel and all of a sudden you get a torque "boost". You can smooth it out loads with mapping and gain a fair amount of mid range response :)
 
  S4 Avant
the kick is there because the fueling is kept lean due to emmisions regs until that point. you get some fuel and all of a sudden you get a torque "boost". You can smooth it out loads with mapping and gain a fair amount of mid range response :)

Which is where this comment came from... :eek:

Dan knows all!

Biggest myth going!

It's just the throttle body opening more, past 5000 revs. More fuel & air = more power
 
Can be the VVT solenoid not working, it has to switch from 5,250/5,300 onwards (hence the kick we all get at that point), if it aint then the car will be off its power.

If you know someone with an RSTuner you can plug it and test that solenoid, should click several times when testing. THis is really the only explanation I would fine for it to struggle in the upper range


Can RSTUNER test that solenoid?can you explain to me
 
  Renaultsport Clio 172
Can RSTUNER test that solenoid?can you explain to me

There is a tester "module" that allows to try several actuators, the VVT solenoid is among them. Engine has to be off but ignition on; at the top of the RSTuner program there is an icon named "Actuators", this gives you a dialog that lists the tests you can perform. When the test is running you will hear a click several times, each click is the solenoid working, if you also go to the engine and take the oil filler cap off you can see the inlet cam moving "forth and back" while the test is running
 
  Not got a car
f**k off with the kick dribble, There needs to be a sticky in the engine section for it to stop people writing all this woffle
 
There is a tester "module" that allows to try several actuators, the VVT solenoid is among them. Engine has to be off but ignition on; at the top of the RSTuner program there is an icon named "Actuators", this gives you a dialog that lists the tests you can perform. When the test is running you will hear a click several times, each click is the solenoid working, if you also go to the engine and take the oil filler cap off you can see the inlet cam moving "forth and back" while the test is running


loto fo thanks,my car loss all the power at 6k,I hope it will be vvt actuator,selenoid or coil pack and not the engine valves
 


Top