LSD's for track cars.....

[DCELEC 182]

Following on from my other thread about spring rates, I'm also looking to get my gearbox rebuilt over winter as a preventative measure for my crunchy 3rd/4th synchro's and toyed with the idea of getting a LSD put in at the same time.
I had a quaiffe atb in an old rs turbo track car I had and it transformed it (admittedly 250bhp boosty 1.6) so thought about one of them and the lack of servicing is very sweet!
But then I've read that a gripper diff is the way to go but seems to be a lot more options that I wouldn't know which to go for and a servicing interval which again I'm not sure about realistic time scales/mileage etc. If the quaiffe was going to give me 80% of the gains with a lot less hassle Id go for that but if a gripper was going to be worlds apart then I might think again.
I'm not racing competitively at the moment but I'm not on a strict budget and would love to be able to get involved with racing at some point in the future!
Again any feedback/experiences welcomed!
Cheers

 

[Advikaz]

From my experience,

plated for racing, ATB for everything else.

 

[james alford]

I am looking for a diff for my 172 cup race car myself and have spoke to a few people about it including gripper.
Seems that if it a road car that is tracked then the option is the quaife as its a lot cheaper and is more of a fit and forget unit.
The gripper however is more a race based unit and can have different ratio machined crown wheel and pinion to adjust gear ratio to your needs. If you want a diff, cwp and fitting you are basically £2k deep with gripper. Just a diff on its own with no cwp is about £1300 with no fitting.

 

[DCELEC 182]

Bar the gearing side of things, which I realise must make al the difference but will really come into its own when racing other clio's with a near identical spec where every car length helps.....what driving/handling characteristics will the gripper have over a quaiffe? How much difference does the diff make in a standard power car?
Not sure I want to invest 2k into a diff alone if I'm honest so the quaiffe may be the sensible option but obviosuyl not if it's not going to give the desired result!!

 

[james alford]

What I believe to be true is that the atb from quaife is helical much like the standard open one meaning if you have a wheel off of the floor (driven wheel) it doesn't fully lock whereas a plated one will. Happy to be advised differently by someone that knows more.

 

[Fletcher]

I had the same dilemma... And ended up going for a Quaife.

 

[masekwm]

I was the same, ended up saving a few hundred and it wasn't that much in going for the Quaife. I know when the time comes, I can sell my box for what I've paid.

 

[bashracing]

I went for the gripper with a lower FD ratio in my hill climb car because I'm chasing Tenths of a second, but will probably have another box built with a quaife diff for a second car for track days and general hooning about as the gripper diff / final drive ratio will be terrible day to day use.
@NorthloopCup will get you it cheaper which ever way you decide to go.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

My Escort rally car has a Quaife diff in it and it's pretty good. There are better options out there no doubt, but it works well for the cost.

If you're going to be using it on the road still, I think a Quaife is probably a better option. I'm sure you'd get most of your money back when you come to sell it.

 

[NorthloopCup]

@DCELEC 182 you'll only really notice the gripper when your accelerating hard out of the corners as it'll give you a slightly better performance vs the Quaife, but it's only very minor. If the last tenth of a second counts then you need a gripper.
I can supply a gripper with the adapter plate welded on to your original crownwheel for £1125 delivered or £1425 delivered if you wanted that to come with a cw&p.
Quaifes come in at £1030. These are the prices currently for 2015 and will go up in 2016 - that's out of my control I'm afraid.

Regards the servicing of grippers, it all comes down to how much abuse you give it and the ramp angles. The more aggressive it's set, the more it'll wear. The plates have been modified in the grippers now to improve the service life.
With a gripper regular oil changes will help to slow the wear down as they're constantly contaminating the oil, but as said above, the plates have been modified to reduce this.

I can fit any of the diffs I can supply too. If you need any more info just give me a shout. :up:

 

[The Russian.]

Miss my grippered clio

 

[NorthloopCup]

Miss my grippered clio 😧

I have nothing suitable to say to this that's forum friendly. Lol! I'll text it. :wink:

 

[NorthloopCup]

I went for the gripper with a lower FD ratio in my hill climb car because I'm chasing Tenths of a second, but will probably have another box built with a quaife diff for a second car for track days and general hooning about as the gripper diff / final drive ratio will be terrible day to day use.
@NorthloopCup will get you it cheaper which ever way you decide to go.

I honestly can't wait to see what this does on the sprints next season!!

 

[bashracing]

Apart from giving me a left forearm like Mike Tyson with all the shifting I reckon 1-1.5 seconds,
Its all going back together tomorrow, should be ready for the friday rush hour GP.

 

[DCELEC 182]

Thanks for all the replies, leaning towards another quaiffe I think.....why are they so expensive for Clio's haha!!
@Northloop, is the quaiiffe a direct fit, or is there work involved in fitting?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Thanks for all the replies, leaning towards another quaiffe I think.....why are they so expensive for Clio's haha!!
@Northloop, is the quaiiffe a direct fit, or is there work involved in fitting?

You need to send your original diff to Quaife so they can fit your crownwheel to the diff, but other than that, no mate.

 

[stokie4ker]

How much difference does the diff make in a standard power car?

I have a Quaife diff, AST coilovers and an engine that is consistently down on power compared with other 1*2's on dyno days. Even though I have one of the least powerful cars there, whenever I'm at Curborough Sprint course I'm one of the fastest and will only get beaten by 2 or 3 guys with big power turbo cars.
Last time out there was a Clio race car there that was fully stripped, caged, CF bonnet, plastic windows in the doors and tailgate, GRP doors and tailgate, cammed engined and ITB's. I was more than 3 seconds faster around the sprint course than he was and I have a standard car other than the diff and suspension.
So yeah, even on standard power it makes a difference because I'm not that good a driver.

...why are they so expensive for Clio's

There are cheaper options.
Mfactory do a helical diff for around £680 . Fred at BTM was doing a trial on them but I'm not sure what came of it. The Honda boys seem to rave about them though.
Depending on how good your Polish is you could try the guys at RSX Racing Solutions
Their diff is €750 which is about £530
Feeling brave?

 

[masekwm]

why are they so expensive for Clio's haha!!

Because of the size difference, they are huge compared to the BE diff.

 

[bloke]

Depending on how good your Polish is you could try the guys at RSX Racing Solutions

do they speak polish in spain??

 

[Cub.]

I gripper'd mine.

For two reasons

1) I don't do a huge amount of miles so it doesn't wear that quickly, coupled to a non-too agressive ramp angle means mine has been fine for 16 months so far. And it is better on track than a quaife.

2) I have both a @Budgie and a @NorthloopCup. Box and diff builds are the least of my worries 😂

 

[Sonic Boom]

I have a Quaife diff, AST coilovers and an engine that is consistently down on power compared with other 1*2's on dyno days. Even though I have one of the least powerful cars there, whenever I'm at Curborough Sprint course I'm one of the fastest and will only get beaten by 2 or 3 guys with big power turbo cars.
Last time out there was a Clio race car there that was fully stripped, caged, CF bonnet, plastic windows in the doors and tailgate, GRP doors and tailgate, cammed engined and ITB's. I was more than 3 seconds faster around the sprint course than he was and I have a standard car other than the diff and suspension.
So yeah, even on standard power it makes a difference because I'm not that good a driver.

What kind of times are you getting round Curborough mate?
Which layout were you doing?

Cheers Rich

 

[eon172]

@DCELEC 182, did you decide? ...I'm in pretty much the same boat. I also hear the grippers can be a little noisy (best for an owner to confirm this though).

Is Fred@BTM still on here, wouldn't mind knowing the outcome of that trial too?

 

[NorthloopCup]

@DCELEC 182, did you decide? ...I'm in pretty much the same boat. I also hear the grippers can be a little noisy (best for an owner to confirm this though).

Is Fred@BTM still on here, wouldn't mind knowing the outcome of that trial too?

The grippers have modified plates in them now which cuts down on the noise by quite a lot, to the extent that they're hardly noticeable now.

 

[bashracing]

Yeah mine is only noticeable in first gear when turning sharply and even then not any where like as bad as the older grippers I've heard

 

[eon172]

Thanks for clarifying

 

[DCELEC 182]

@DCELEC 182, did you decide? ...I'm in pretty much the same boat. I also hear the grippers can be a little noisy (best for an owner to confirm this though).

Is Fred@BTM still on here, wouldn't mind knowing the outcome of that trial too?

Finances have slowed up ordering anything diff wise as I've decided to get a cage before anything else, have got some stiffer front coilover springs though.
I'm leaning towards the quaiiffe if I'm honest, purely from a financial and convenience point of view (a gripper will cost at least 2k fitted where a quaiiffe is a good £500 cheaper), I know deep down the gripper would be better but I'm not chasing 10ths of seconds as ultimately it's just a trackday car at the moment and I have to draw the line somewhere. I would probably be better off with North loop cups hubs and a quaiiffe over just a gripper for example!
I will go for a Megane 5th gear though when I get the box refurbed.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Finances have slowed up ordering anything diff wise as I've decided to get a cage before anything else, have got some stiffer front coilover springs though.
I'm leaning towards the quaiiffe if I'm honest, purely from a financial and convenience point of view (a gripper will cost at least 2k fitted where a quaiiffe is a good £500 cheaper), I know deep down the gripper would be better but I'm not chasing 10ths of seconds as ultimately it's just a trackday car at the moment and I have to draw the line somewhere. I would probably be better off with North loop cups hubs and a quaiiffe over just a gripper for example!
I will go for a Megane 5th gear though when I get the box refurbed.

Hubs and Quaife and Meg 5th gear is the combo I'll be running. :up:

 

[DCELEC 182]

Hubs and Quaife and Meg 5th gear is the combo I'll be running. :up:

Great minds think alike and all that then!! Is that what you have ran already?
I think that combination should make a noticeable difference?!

 

[masekwm]

Hubs and Quaife and Meg 5th gear is the combo I'll be running. :up:

Whats the benefit of adding the 5th gear? Much extra cost?

 

[DCELEC 182]

Megane 5th gear is slightly lower, you'll notice on track how 5th always feels to high and makes the car feel sluggish (standard power cars especially)!

 

[masekwm]

Megane 5th gear is slightly lower, you'll notice on track how 5th always feels to high and makes the car feel sluggish (standard power cars especially)!

Interesting, like using the FD of a 1.6 box on a 1.9 205.
@NorthloopCup so a worthwhile change whilst you have a pile of cogs?

 

[DCELEC 182]

It's only 5th gear that's shorter not all the gears like on a 205 (I'm pretty sure)....north loop cup will be know costs but I don't think it's any more than £100 for the 5th gear alone?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Great minds think alike and all that then!! Is that what you have ran already?
I think that combination should make a noticeable difference?!

My cup has only ever ran with the hubs mate. The diff is only there for the extra power for 2016 - but, the hubs alone made a substantial improvement/difference on standard power. Corner weighted and setup correctly it was epic - and that was on kw's. On the asts it's phenomenal. Have a search for a couple of my vids - Nurburgring lap and oulton laps. Ring lap is on the kw's and oulton is on the asts.
I've opted for the Meg 5th purely to keep the engine in the power band when changing from 4th to 5th. It restricts top speed, but that's not what Clio's are about for me. As long as I'm not bouncing along on the limiter in 5th at the 'Ring (so 140+) I couldn't care less! Lol!

Interesting, like using the FD of a 1.6 box on a 1.9 205.
@NorthloopCup so a worthwhile change whilst you have a pile of cogs?

Similar mate yeah. See the description above. If you want it mate, I'll fit it. Got all the numbers for it as I've quoted it out recently funnily enough.

It's only 5th gear that's shorter not all the gears like on a 205 (I'm pretty sure)....north loop cup will be know costs but I don't think it's any more than £100 for the 5th gear alone?

Yeah I get them for £112 delivered to the door.

 

[bloke]

Interesting, like using the FD of a 1.6 box on a 1.9 205.
so a worthwhile change whilst you have a pile of cogs?

can be changed any time, you don't need to strip the box to do it, just pop the end casing off.

 

[RichieJA]

North what is your YouTube channel ?

 

[bozothenutter]

Hmmm....there now is a wavetrac for 197/200's

 

[NorthloopCup]

North what is your YouTube channel ?

Ring lap:
Oulton laps:

 

[RichieJA]

Nice driving m8 love a go round the ring

 

[NorthloopCup]

Nice driving m8 love a go round the ring

Cheers. Yeah it's a great place tbf.

 

[eon172]

@DCELEC 182

Fair enough, I can appreciate the hit on the finances, safety first, I'm trying to work out how to do an LSD, AST coilovers and a trailer over the winter! :s

I'm wanting to sprint as well as track and possibly a little racing next session if I'm lucky, so I'm torn. I'm also a little tired of driving to events in it (to much drone), so a trailer will mean more track focus and therefore less compromise needed.

Unless I missed something there's less than £500 in it...

"
I can supply a gripper with the adapter plate welded on to your original crownwheel for £1125 delivered or £1425 delivered if you wanted that to come with a cw&p.
Quaifes come in at £1030. These are the prices currently for 2015 and will go up in 2016 - that's out of my control I'm afraid. "

Now I'm fairly mechanically savvy and have done all my own rebuild so far, but gearboxes completely challenge me. So is the £1425 gripper delivered + megane 5th everything I need which is then a straight forward bolt on by yours truly? Or is there more specialist work needed as some people are referring to a £2k overall cost for this job?

Same question for the Quaife quote as well?

I'm assuming that buying a new cw&p means I can keep the original matched cw&p in case I want to sell the gripper+newer cw&p and revert the box in the future, our swap the box if it becomes foobar? I'm probably speaking b****cks here and will be shot down for being uneducated in the subject of gearboxes on here [emoji14] . More research needed me thinks.

Thanks for the help.