Power gains from removing power steering?

[Dangerous_dave]

Alrite chaps, prob one for Icarus ? Fred? BenP? etc

Is it possible to get reasonable powergains from removing power steering from my cup?
@192bhp and over 200per ton but want to try and reach(or get closer) the 200 mark without getting boddies or something that will cost a kidney. (also have a decat on order yet to be fitted)

I know that MarkCup has done something along the lines of removing power steering but cant get hold of him. (have pm'd him)

Powergains achieved from weight loss i.e power to weight ratios?
Or
Reduced draw on the engine? e.g like using aircon in a car uses some power?


Or Both of the above rather than just mainly one???


Any one actually done this? Take long? any problems with ecu/sensors getting crankey once removed?

Cheers in advance
Dave

 

[Hutchie]

7bhp gain

and run a electric/hydro pump for rack pm ditz

 

[Dangerous_dave]

7bhp is what MarkCup mentioned a long time ago..

cheers hutchie have pm'd ditz.

any more advice peeps?

 

[Dangerous_dave]

7bhp gain

and run a electric/hydro pump for rack pm ditz

whats an electric/hydro pump going to set me back? roughly?

 

[Quade]

Check out Burp's project thread. He has just got rid of his powersteering and fitted an electric pump.

 

[TooneySonic]

I would like to be able to tell you but my blowing mani prevented a fair test (clocked 166bhp this weekend ) will report back once sorted

 

[Dangerous_dave]

thats must have been annoying. cool let me know.

 

[ditz]

its easy enough mate, bin the pump and pipework etc and you want a 5pk850 belt (5rib, 850mm... origional belt is 6rib but its easier to find 5 and fits fine)

then you can either use a 1.216v or 1.5dci rack,, which is designed for a power column... its just a manual rack with a quick ratio.

OR

keep the 172 rack.. you can use a pump from a saxo (electro hydraulic) then get a custom high pressure hhose made up at a hydraulics place... then make the return line yourself

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

7 bhp would be nice , but i doubt it some how. mine certainly didn't feel like an extra 7 when i did it.

you have to use a 5pk850 because a 6 don't fit ( it rubs the plastic cam cover)

and don't be a girl, you don't need electric pwr steering, mine has a standard 172 pas rack blanked off, and it's fine to drive.

 

[Jay Payne]

I wont be able to do a fair test cos ive got the rstuner group n map on mine too now.

7bhp is a bit ambitious tho id of thought more like a couple

 

[stan*]

As soon as you turn the steering wheel, electric PAS OR mechanical PAS, there will be draw on the engine.

Also the electric column set-ups I would avoid, they feel very vague and light.

 

[Hutchie]

7 bhp would be nice , but i doubt it some how. mine certainly didn't feel like an extra 7 when i did it.

you have to use a 5pk850 because a 6 don't fit ( it rubs the plastic cam cover)

and don't be a girl, you don't need electric pwr steering, mine has a standard 172 pas rack blanked off, and it's fine to drive.

you cna run 172 rack with no fluid in??? or you run pipe from one side to other???

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

use one of the old pipes and rebend it to go to the other side, with a bit of fluid in to keep it lubricated. and blank the steering colomn ones with silicone . works fine.

 

[richy22]

I wont be able to do a fair test cos ive got the rstuner group n map on mine too now. 7bhp is a bit ambitious tho id of thought more like a couple

which file is this group n map everyone goes on about?

 

[Dangerous_dave]

use one of the old pipes and rebend it to go to the other side, with a bit of fluid in to keep it lubricated. and blank the steering colomn ones with silicone . works fine.

Does this not cause vibrations and creaking?

just seems a bit hatchet harry. But if it works then hey ho i will give it a go.

i'll get under the car later in the week and have a butchers.


All,
i will no doubt have questions to ask you all as i go about doing it so if you wouldnt mind... your advice and comments would be most appreciated as i get stuck in so please check back to this post now and again if you can.


Cheers all!
D

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Does this not cause vibrations and creaking?

just seems a bit hatchet harry. But if it works then hey ho i will give it a go.

i'll get under the car later in the week and have a butchers.


All,
i will no doubt have questions to ask you all as i go about doing it so if you wouldnt mind... your advice and comments would be most appreciated as i get stuck in so please check back to this post now and again if you can.


Cheers all!
D

nope. you can change the rack and column if you wish or put a link pipe in. tbh it would be better to have a custom made or flexi pipe in there instead. you have to do the pipe from the top and it aint easy! lol

 

[Dangerous_dave]

You just bent your origional round Daz? Or did you get a custom one. If so where from? any recomendations, never bought a product of this nature before.

Cheers



will i seee 8bhp from a decat and removing the steering rack?

 

[ben_p]

I cant see you getting 8hp from that tbh, more like 3-4

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

You just bent your origional round Daz? Or did you get a custom one. If so where from? any recomendations, never bought a product of this nature before.

Cheers



will i seee 8bhp from a decat and removing the steering rack?

Yeah i just cent the old one as my pipe flaring tool wouldn't do the job

 

[Dangerous_dave]

its easy enough mate, bin the pump and pipework etc and you want a 5pk850 belt (5rib, 850mm... origional belt is 6rib but its easier to find 5 and fits fine)

then you can either use a 1.216v or 1.5dci rack,, which is designed for a power column... its just a manual rack with a quick ratio.

OR

keep the 172 rack.. you can use a pump from a saxo (electro hydraulic) then get a custom high pressure hose made up at a hydraulics place... then make the return line yourself

i think i will go for the electro hydraulic option. after a quick bit of research on wiki! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering

It says i will get about 1 extra mpg due to no draw on the engine too! woop woop.

will get something like this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1X-CITROEN-SAXO-ELECTRIC-POWER-STEERING-PUMP_W0QQitemZ360142552029QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item360142552029&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50


I think i have a good idea about where all the hydraulic hoses will go.
Where would i need to wire this up to electrics wise. Should it be plumbed into a particular wire? What controls the pump? is the pump self regulated as such or???
cheers

 

[Icarus]

7bhp maybe with the rack on full load and the pump working hard. Thing is when you're going in a straight line all you're dealing with are the parasitic loads of moving fluid through the system, it's not actualy doing any 'work' as such.

1 to 2 bhp maybe at a push. Get more just rigging up an alternator disconnect so the alternator doesn't charge at WOT.

Cheers
M

 

[Dangerous_dave]

now thats food for thought....

Is it worthwhile then Mark?


i do have a lot of spare time on my hands this summer

 

[franx]

Mike@Rentech has done a couple of these cars ; i think you can trie to contact him

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

7bhp maybe with the rack on full load and the pump working hard. Thing is when you're going in a straight line all you're dealing with are the parasitic loads of moving fluid through the system, it's not actualy doing any 'work' as such.

1 to 2 bhp maybe at a push. Get more just rigging up an alternator disconnect so the alternator doesn't charge at WOT.

Cheers
M

Alternator thing doesn't work much either, tried it, in theory it should work, however for example running the coil at 12v instead of 14.5v ish, cuts the power in the spark and therefore doesn't burn as good, also the injectors are affected. Not saying it doesn't give you anything, it's just such a small amount.............

 

[Icarus]

Alternator thing doesn't work much either, tried it, in theory it should work, however for example running the coil at 12v instead of 14.5v ish, cuts the power in the spark and therefore doesn't burn as good, also the injectors are affected. Not saying it doesn't give you anything, it's just such a small amount.............

Spark will be more than sufficent with 12V to light the mixture off and ECU (unless its a poorly mapped aftermarket) has battery compensation to ensure accurately metered injection events under varying electrical load.

Alternator disconnect is common practice on competition cars, including endurance, with strategies in place to control battery discharge rates etc. It's worth 4.7bhp on a Judd powered LMP during night running. Quite often its built into the defend/overtake strategy which overrides any other strats in place (i.e. lower rev limit, maximum fuel economy, etc. etc.) to delivery maximum power for an overtake of position defence situation.

Cheers
M

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Spark will be more than sufficent with 12V to light the mixture off and ECU (unless its a poorly mapped aftermarket) has battery compensation to ensure accurately metered injection events under varying electrical load.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head! (goes off to work out the battery comp on my omex!)

 

[Mike@Rentech]

its not about power gains with this conversion, its about steering feel and as Mark said its like having two large lumps of rubber at your fingers.

 

[Icarus]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head! (goes off to work out the battery comp on my omex!)

Have you got any battery compensation at all? If not your fueling will be all over the shop as the electrical loads vary (i.e. lights and blowers on).

It really is extremely important to get it correct!

Cheers
M

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Have you got any battery compensation at all? If not your fueling will be all over the shop as the electrical loads vary (i.e. lights and blowers on).

It really is extremely important to get it correct!

Cheers
M

yes i have, but wether it's right is another matter

 

[Icarus]

If you let me know what injectors you're using I can probably dig out a comp table that'll be 99% correct........ which is a vast improvement on 'might be' ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

If you let me know what injectors you're using I can probably dig out a comp table that'll be 99% correct........ which is a vast improvement on 'might be' ;-)

Cheers
M

Pm'd so i don't mess up the OP's thread anymore

 

[franx]

its not about power gains with this conversion, its about steering feel and as Mark said its like having two large lumps of rubber at your fingers.

there you go

Speak to Mike and Mark

 

[Dangerous_dave]

hmmm 'sparked' some interesting discussions in this thread.

Cheers for all advice.

will prob pm a few of you over the next week or 2.

 

[TooneySonic]

hmm so basically in a straight line there will be very little power gains but under cornering loads there is?

so i'm unlikely to see anything on a rr?

 

[stan*]

There is power required whether the hydraulic pressure for the PAS system is created by an electric moto driven pump, or a mechanical driven pump via the engine.

Either way, power is required...

Any difference in power required will come from the efficiency of mechanical versus electrical. Ive no data for either.

But more is used during corenering obviously, as this is when more hydraulic pressure is required.

 

[Dangerous_dave]

yes granted but if you are an idoiot 'cup' owner like me by changing to the electro pump or removing and blanking off completly i can remove a lot of s**t / weight and have more power available in and coming out of corners which should potential make headway on a track? Please correct me if my logic is wrong

Cheers
Dave

 

[Icarus]

There is power required whether the hydraulic pressure for the PAS system is created by an electric moto driven pump, or a mechanical driven pump via the engine.

Either way, power is required...

Any difference in power required will come from the efficiency of mechanical versus electrical. Ive no data for either.

But more is used during corenering obviously, as this is when more hydraulic pressure is required.

The solution to that is ePAS, where current is only drawn when a steering angle is applied. As such it draws zero power bar what is required to run the ePAS ECU when it is 'idle'. It also tends to be lighter and you can do very trick stuff such as fully speed and load sensitive assistance. In a race car its also a fair bit safer as there's no PAS fluid to set on fire for a start!

Cheers
M

 

[Dangerous_dave]

cheers mark!

 

[stan*]

yes granted but if you are an idoiot 'cup' owner like me by changing to the electro pump or removing and blanking off completly i can remove a lot of s**t / weight and have more power available in and coming out of corners which should potential make headway on a track? Please correct me if my logic is wrong

Cheers
Dave

By removing any PAS altogether, then yes that will reduce weight and increase power.

Who is Mark ? lol

 

[stan*]

The solution to that is ePAS, where current is only drawn when a steering angle is applied. As such it draws zero power bar what is required to run the ePAS ECU when it is 'idle'. It also tends to be lighter and you can do very trick stuff such as fully speed and load sensitive assistance. In a race car its also a fair bit safer as there's no PAS fluid to set on fire for a start!

Cheers
M

Yup thats great, but not something I would be expecting most hobbiest trackdayers to employ!

Is this type of function available on the SQ6??