Punchier brakes

[Z4MCSL]

You guys may tell me this is a waste of time but here goes...

My 182 is still very basic, main meaningful mods are

Stripped (ish) with buckets
Upgraded discs
PBS Pads
Lines etc
Eibach springs
Whiteline ARB (best mod so far!!)
Solid top mounts and strut from PMS
Engine mount
Dogbone polybush

After my 3rd day at Abingdon I'm loving the car.
The weak point is still me of course, however I am still looking at upgrades and rather than power, I'm thinking the thing that might actually get me around faster is better brakes. The PBS pads are really good and I will get them again but is there a way to get punchier actually braking power


If I upgrade the calipers will i actually stop more quickly and if so what should I get??

Cheers

 

[Bluebeard]

I’ve just fitted DS1.11’s to my track car and I cannot believe how good they are. Best money I’ve spent on the car for ages.

 

[JamesBryan]

Higher friction coefficient pads will improve the feel.

CL RC6, DS1.11 or Winmax W5/W6

Any of them will be plenty.

 

[Krarl]

Look towards cooling too, people overlook brake ducts but they make a huge difference if you can force the hot air out of the brakes

 

[Z4MCSL]

Forgot to mention I've done brake ducts too

 

[Z4MCSL]

Higher friction coefficient pads will improve the feel.

CL RC6, DS1.11 or Winmax W5/W6

Any of them will be plenty.

Are these very different to the PBS pads? They came highly recommended and weren't cheap

 

[JamesBryan]

Are these very different to the PBS pads? They came highly recommended and weren't cheap

I use PBS and find them decent enough.

Not that expensive?

Are you running them front and rear? They need the rears to work their best.

 

[White16valver]

A dumb question, perhaps, but are you pressing as hard as you can on the pedal?

I think we're all guilty of underestimating the braking power we have, at least in the dry, unless it's an emergency and we are trying to put both feet through the floor to avoid hitting something lol

Perhaps some extra practice would give you enhanced ability to maximise braking pressure at that point juuuuust before lock-up/ABS kicks in, which I believe is the highest retardation phase.

 

[Z4MCSL]

A dumb question, perhaps, but are you pressing as hard as you can on the pedal?

I think we're all guilty of underestimating the braking power we have, at least in the dry, unless it's an emergency and we are trying to put both feet through the floor to avoid hitting something lol

Perhaps some extra practice would give you enhanced ability to maximise braking pressure at that point juuuuust before lock-up/ABS kicks in, which I believe is the highest retardation phase.

I have been thinking this as well to be fair - first time I went on a track day I hadn't touched the standard brakes - I was braking VERY hard all the time and they ended up setting on fire and melting the calipers.

since then I have tried to be more progressive but I do regulalry hit the lock up point and there is a straight with a hair pin at the end at Abingdon that seems a really good opportunity test how to use the brakes as you need to almost come to a stop from 4th gear flat out. I just feel like there could be some more bite in them?

I use PBS and find them decent enough.

Not that expensive?

Are you running them front and rear? They need the rears to work their best.

No actually rear brakes are standard after reading so much about the fact they make no difference...but you think they will? might give that a try next

 

[JamesBryan]

No actually rear brakes are standard after reading so much about the fact they make no difference...but you think they will? might give that a try next

Yeah they 100% make a difference!

It's only the 172 Cup that they do very little due to the lack of ABS.

On the 182 they do probably 30% of the effort i'd say.

Also, the higher friction pad you go, the more the heat will be transferred into the brake fluid. I run Castrol SRF, it's not cheap but it's one of the best.

 

[MarkCup]

If I upgrade the calipers will i actually stop more quickly?

If your current setup has enough bite and power to lock the wheels, no, you won't stop any quicker. You can only stop as quickly as the limiting factor allows, and that limiting factor is the grip the tyres have.

Modifications will change pedal feel, bite, temperature response, and endurance.

 

[MLB]

Higher friction coefficient pads will improve the feel.

CL RC6, DS1.11 or Winmax W5/W6

Any of them will be plenty.

Looking at graphs from Ferodo and PBS the PBS pads actually are the higher friction pads though aren't they?

They apparently need a bit of heat in them to work but peak friction looks significantly higher than the ds1.11.

I've got both the PBS pads and ds1.11 but not tried the latter yet so sadly can't make a comparison!

 

[JamesBryan]

Looking at graphs from Ferodo and PBS the PBS pads actually are the higher friction pads though aren't they?

They apparently need a bit of heat in them to work but peak friction looks significantly higher than the ds1.11.

I've got both the PBS pads and ds1.11 but not tried the latter yet so sadly can't make a comparison!

View attachment 1502216View attachment 1502217

Yeah, although you won't really see those higher temperatures for sustained periods on a track day so the ds1.11 have a higher coefficient from cold.

 

[MLB]

Crossover seems to be around 280 degrees between the two pads. I have no idea what brake temperatures you would see if continuously monitored over a lap (all very much driver/weather/track etc dependant of course.)

I bet you'd destroy your pads, discs and fluid quite quickly though if you'd be up there over 3/400 degrees all the time.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Yeah, although you won't really see those higher temperatures for sustained periods on a track day so the ds1.11 have a higher coefficient from cold.

Indeed, you'll just cook something else before your pads give up in that case.

 

[JamesBryan]

Crossover seems to be around 280 degrees between the two pads. I have no idea what brake temperatures you would see if continuously monitored over a lap (all very much driver/weather/track etc dependant of course.)

I bet you'd destroy your pads, discs and fluid quite quickly though if you'd be up there over 3/400 degrees all the time.

Yeah it must be up there around 400 or so.

I've checked the temperature of mine after a cool down and they were around 200 I think.

 

[MLB]

I find the theory behind it all very interesting.

Especially that it seems for brake wear and fluid longevity you'd want them as cool as possible but for pure stopping power with the PBS pads you'd want (a lot of) heat in the pads.

@MarkCup makes a good point as well though, you'd have to move to stickier tyres to benefit from better braking power.

I'm installing brake ducts and cooling plates to my brembos soon, would be interesting to see if I notice a difference (seeing as I don't have any real track experience).

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

I find the theory behind it all very interesting.

Especially that it seems for brake wear and fluid longevity you'd want them as cool as possible but for pure stopping power with the PBS pads you'd want (a lot of) heat in the pads.

@MarkCup makes a good point as well though, you'd have to move to stickier tyres to benefit from better braking power.

I'm installing brake ducts and cooling plates to my brembos soon, would be interesting to see if I notice a difference (seeing as I don't have any real track experience).

If you don't have any track experience then my recommendation would be go to the next available evening track session you can with the car as is. If nothing holds you back then book another trackday instead of spending all your money on mods.

 

[MLB]

You're right @Jeff simply, that is the best advice, I'm 100% the limiting factor, but this stupid covid situation has prevented me doing any trackdays during summer and we're in lockdown in Wales so next couple of weeks will be spent tinkering on the driveway again.

Booked Anglesey and Oulton Park in December hoping I'll be able to go, can't wait to get out there again!

 

[JamesBryan]

You're right @Jeff simply, that is the best advice, I'm 100% the limiting factor, but this stupid covid situation has prevented me doing any trackdays during summer and we're in lockdown in Wales so next couple of weeks will be spent tinkering on the driveway again.

Booked Anglesey and Oulton Park in December hoping I'll be able to go, can't wait to get out there again!

When are you at Oulton?

I'm there 5th December.

 

[MLB]

Ah shame! I'm there 2nd of December!

 

[botfch]

I find the theory behind it all very interesting.

Especially that it seems for brake wear and fluid longevity you'd want them as cool as possible but for pure stopping power with the PBS pads you'd want (a lot of) heat in the pads.

@MarkCup makes a good point as well though, you'd have to move to stickier tyres to benefit from better braking power.

I'm installing brake ducts and cooling plates to my brembos soon, would be interesting to see if I notice a difference (seeing as I don't have any real track experience).

I doubt you will notice much difference you have to really push the brembos to get them to overheat on a 182.
Something else usually breaks before you get to that point.. 😂

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

I doubt you will notice much difference you have to really push the brembos to get them to overheat on a 182.
Something else usually breaks before you get to that point.. 😂

My power steering fluid boiled before I lost the brakes on my 172.

Always best to do a local evening or cheap day on your first time with a new car just incase there's something that breaks early and ruins your day (imo)

 

[MLB]

@Archtronics that's good to know, then it'll just be more bling haha!

@Jeff simply I've done a day at Oulton before and it held up well so here's me hoping it won't break this time either after a summer of maintenance jobs!

 

[Ed Hodson]

Any recommendations on where to purchase ds1.11 pads for a 182 at a decent price?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Any recommendations on where to purchase ds1.11 pads for a 182 at a decent price?

Usually ebay.

 

[botfch]

@Archtronics that's good to know, then it'll just be more bling haha!

@Jeff simply I've done a day at Oulton before and it held up well so here's me hoping it won't break this time either after a summer of maintenance jobs!

It's always something unexpected that gets you brake servo went on mine and I had some fun at the lodge, thought I'd pressed the clutch by accident. 😂

 

[Crazylegs]

I think learning how to brake in a progressive manner and in the correct way help massively, such as braking in a straight line and not on a bend, apex etc as they make a massive difference to the handling. Having good pads helps of course.

 

[youngarthur]

I have mostly run DS1.11.( They ruined the Alloys.),but am now using Winmax. The 1.11 feel more instant, but the winmax feel more progressive. These are good for road and track, but if you are only running on the road, I would not go this far.

 

[MLB]

It's always something unexpected that gets you brake servo went on mine and I had some fun at the lodge, thought I'd pressed the clutch by accident. 😂

Yeah I see something like that happening to me as well.

My radiator killed itself last week, glad that happened two miles from home and with some time to get it fixed before the booked track days.

 

[White16valver]

Looking at graphs from Ferodo and PBS the PBS pads actually are the higher friction pads though aren't they?

They apparently need a bit of heat in them to work but peak friction looks significantly higher than the ds1.11.

I've got both the PBS pads and ds1.11 but not tried the latter yet so sadly can't make a comparison!

View attachment 1502216View attachment 1502217

Ooooh, graphs, I like graphs



Were they both off the PBS website?

Got a link to the page for future reference?


I've found Hawk HP+ to be very grippy from stone cold - I think they have a similar mu to the DS1.11? (although I note the graphs above start from 100/150 degrees, which is not 'just set off when it's snowing outside' cold lol)

 

[Crazylegs]

I've commented on the Hawks before. I had HP+ on a previous DC5 and they were excellent. Good from cold too which was surprising considering they're predominantly a track pad. They kicked off tonnes of dust though but it was worth it for the stopping power. Expensive though.

 

[MLB]

Ooooh, graphs, I like graphs



Were they both off the PBS website?

Got a link to the page for future reference?


I've found Hawk HP+ to be very grippy from stone cold - I think they have a similar mu to the DS1.11? (although I note the graphs above start from 100/150 degrees, which is not 'just set off when it's snowing outside' cold lol)

View attachment 1502311

Both from kam racing for ease but they are also published in the PBS and Ferodo website.

 

[Usr117063]

Stiffer suspension and lower, less weight transfer.

 

[jameswrx]

I have PBS pro-race pads and think they’re amazing. The brakes on the little clio never cease to amaze me considering how basic they are. I did fit new Brembo HC discs and ATE race fluid and give piston and sliders a good clean/lube but I couldn’t unsettle the brakes no matter what I did.

It’s worth noting they do pro-race and pro-track as I almost accidentally bought track ones on eBay as noticed they were £20 cheaper and didn’t realise at first

You will notice a slight loss of sharpness from cold but they’re not for that purpose, something has to give.

My other 172 has Brembo HC discs and Ferodo 2500’s. I’ve not tried them on track yet but they don’t feel as strong when I’ve stamped on them on the road testing the feel. They also seem a bit more wooden feeling but maybe they come into their own when they’re track hot.

 

[White16valver]

I have PBS pro-race pads and think they’re amazing. The brakes on the little clio never cease to amaze me considering how basic they are. I did fit new Brembo HC discs and ATE race fluid and give piston and sliders a good clean/lube but I couldn’t unsettle the brakes no matter what I did.

It’s worth noting they do pro-race and pro-track as I almost accidentally bought track ones on eBay as noticed they were £20 cheaper and didn’t realise at first

You will notice a slight loss of sharpness from cold but they’re not for that purpose, something has to give.

My other 172 has Brembo HC discs and Ferodo 2500’s. I’ve not tried them on track yet but they don’t feel as strong when I’ve stamped on them on the road testing the feel. They also seem a bit more wooden feeling but maybe they come into their own when they’re track hot.

I'm not sure what pads were on my car when I got it but 'wooden' was an understatement, lol.

They also had a tendency to just, er, not work when cold so I almost overshot the Give Way line at a T-junction every few mornings, even at 10mph... lol


Since then I've always aimed for brakes that work well straight from stone cold!!

 

[jameswrx]

I'm not sure what pads were on my car when I got it but 'wooden' was an understatement, lol.

They also had a tendency to just, er, not work when cold so I almost overshot the Give Way line at a T-junction every few mornings, even at 10mph... lol


Since then I've always aimed for brakes that work well straight from stone cold!!

That sounds more like an issue rather than pads, maybe the callipers were a bit seized up and you free’d them off? No pads should be that bad to not stop you like that.

 

[Kev@KAM]

Looking at graphs from Ferodo and PBS the PBS pads actually are the higher friction pads though aren't they?

They apparently need a bit of heat in them to work but peak friction looks significantly higher than the ds1.11.

I've got both the PBS pads and ds1.11 but not tried the latter yet so sadly can't make a comparison!

View attachment 1502216View attachment 1502217

Sadly there is no standardisation for measuring braking friction so the comparison of graphs gives you an idea of how the pads react to temperature but nothing else. Friction can change based on clamping load and many other factors on a test rig

 

[White16valver]

That sounds more like an issue rather than pads, maybe the callipers were a bit seized up and you free’d them off? No pads should be that bad to not stop you like that.

I'm not sure, it's possible - all I knew was that I couldn't guarantee to stop if some kid on a bike rode out into the road in front of me, so they had to go! lol

I'm very happy with the Hawk HP+ but I think I read somewhere that they operate differently to other pads, in that other pads use some element of transfer to the discs to improve braking power, but the HP+ literally just eat the disc

I got through a set of (admittedly very cheap) front discs in 8k miles with the HP+ IIRC, and I am *very* light on brakes! lol

 

[Kev@KAM]

Only 100% metallic pads like CL brakes don’t require bedding in. As far as I know Hawk pads still need a bedding in process and will transfer some material to the disc.

they do have some aggressive compounds. Race pads designed for short race events tend to not have the disc or pad life as a prioritised feature