Took my engine out, things don't look good.

[Brendan2234]

Thought I'd stick a few pictures up as I'm getting pretty depressed with the 172 I've bought, it's rapidly becoming more and more lemon like!
I'm in the unfortunate position of having very little time to work on the car, and I'm also in too much debt to spend much more on it, it was meant to be a cheap fix to get me a little fun runaround. The car set me back £580 with what I thought was just a rattly dephaser, and the current parts bill must be more than that by now!

Anyway I'm hoping some advice/consolation or encouragement from fellow CS members might make me feel better, so any comments will be appreciated!

Got the car in and started taking stuff off:

Going...

Going...

Gone! (Pulling apart a lambda sensor plug I'd forgotten to disconnect in the process )

Found both inner track rods and gaiters are knackered, another £80 gone

I thought I saw a puff of blue smoke a couple of times starting the car in the morning, but couldn't get any out of it on the overrun so thought I could probably leave it. However the state of the plugs and what I can see of the exhaust valves doesn't look good

Any comments on renewing the valve stem seals on one of these?

The rest of the engine is very oily, so much so I can't really pinpoint a specific leak. all over the cam covers and down the front and back of the block is soaked. The only definite leak I can say I've got is from the gear selector

I'd love to send the box off to northloop to get fixed properly, but I just can't afford it. Have ordered a TND kit in the hope that it will at least slow the leaking down to an acceptable level. The car had a slight crunch into 3rd before I took it apart as well, however I'm hopeful this was because all the gearbox oil had leaked out and what little was left in came out black and sludgy!

Any thoughts on the rest of the oil? I can't see anywhere on the cam covers where one bolt or section of seal is obviously leaking, and the breather hose looks to be on tight (I can't get it off) If my valve seals are gone do you think the cam cover might be pressurising slightly and just blowing oil out everywhere?

As you can probably tell I'm nearing my wits end with this car, I reckon it's probably going to stand me closer to £1500 without my labour when it's done, could probably have got a 182 with all the belts done for that!

Anyway I'll hand over to you guys, any suggestions or feedback to make me feel better will be greatly appreciated!

 

[Poopensharten]

Sorry but what were you expecting for £580 lol?

 

[General Dave]

Fair enough money is tight, I can appreciate that. but 1500 for a 172 with belts done and you know personally that everything is sorted as you've done it yourself is not too bad at all. Press on buddy.

 

[JamesBryan]

Bought for £580, stick a grand in it. Should be a decent motor for £1500 then.

I'd run a Valeo clutch personally, although LUK is a decent brand.

Get a heatshield for that starter motor too otherwise it won't last long.

 

[Brendan2234]

Went with Luk for the clutch as it was the cheapest decent brand I'd heard of. There is a heat shield for the starter too it just came off whilst removing the engine.

So has anyone had any success changing stem seals without removing the head on one of these? Or am I going to have to do a headgasket on it as well?

Looked through the service history and it has already had a headgasket done previously in its life, I've found a few broken brackets and missing bolts which doesn't fill me with confidence in the quality of the job. Any chance the copious amounts of oil I've got down the front and back of the block could be from the head to block join or is this unusual?

 

[JamesBryan]

I got my Valeo clutch from GSF for £60.

Not sure about the head work. These engines are not that common for headgasket failures, so i'm wondering why it's been done in the past...

@bloke may be able to offer some advice.

 

[Brendan2234]

Was hoping I could do the rope in the cylinder trick to stop any valves dropping while I changed the seals, and yeah no indication why the headgasket had to be done it was ages ago though I'll double check when but I'm sure the car has done 50k since. I should have done a compression check before I took it out really just for peace of mind

 

[bashracing]

Possibly had the belt let go at 50k requiring the head off.

 

[Louis]

They all leak from the selector, i wouldn't worry about that for now unless its pissing out.

 

[Brendan2234]

Possibly had the belt let go at 50k requiring the head off.

And if the head has been rebuilt with non oem parts the stem seals might have been cheap pattern ones and have reached the end of their life now the cars on 120k. Good shout.

 

[bloke]

stick a phase 1 head on it and throw a 182 exhaust manifold on while everything is out.

 

[Chrisgti6]

Second hand engine with belts done not a better option?

 

[R3k1355]

They all leak from the selector, i wouldn't worry about that for now unless its pissing out.

This, they all leak and they all look really bad when you first see it.
but they've been leaking for years and chances are you're the first person to do anything about it.

I wouldn't bother trying to fix that engine if valves are gone, just get a new engine in there it will be cheaper/quicker anyway.

 

[Brendan2234]

That's positive about the selector seal, at least even if I can only improve it a little it'll be worth it.

As far as I'm aware the valves, head and everything else are all ok it's just seals that have gone, so at about two quid each it won't break the bank to replace them all.

 

[Brendan2234]

The plot thickens!

Looks very much like the cambelt snapped to me, the above invoice was stamped at 72k and the car is on 120k now. Given some of the telltale signs I've found I'm not convinced a good or thorough job was done, so it's possible the headset was skimped on as well. Going to try and hook a battery up and do a compression check first to rule out any valve seat wear, and if that checks out ok I'll fit some good quality stem seals and it should be a strong motor once again.
I drove it about for a little while with the rattly dephaser before taking it apart and it seemed to idle, rev and pull well enough so I'm not unduly worried at this stage, but I suppose compression readings will tell all!

 

[TirelessEnigma]

There's 3 options.
1. Break that car up and buy a different one.
2.Do a proper job. Get the head off and do it properly (check the guides,valves etc). Take the pistons out also (you have the engine out already so won't be that hard) and check the pistons, bore and rings. If you don't do it properly you'll be doing it again. Do it right, do it once.
Compression test is ok. Leak down is better if you have a compressor. A leak down kit isn't that expensive. Unfortunately you have already spent a lot of money on parts but at least they'd be useful if you bought a different car. I would be sorting out that 3rd gear whist it's out. New oil will definately not fix that. Budget for a rebuild or known decent second hand box.
3.It would probably be more cost effective and quicker to buy a known good engine and box and throw your new bits on that. ***Do this***

 

[R3k1355]

As far as I'm aware the valves, head and everything else are all ok it's just seals that have gone, so at about two quid each it won't break the bank to replace them all.

Plus the cost of a full head gasket set.
Plus the cost of a head skim
Plus the cost of whatever else is wrong with it as well.

It would probably be more cost effective and quicker to buy a known good engine and box and throw your new bits on that. ***Do this***

 

[Mr R.]

Plus the cost of a full head gasket set.
Plus the cost of a head skim
Plus the cost of whatever else is wrong with it as well.

If the head has already been skimmed once then it won't take another one.

I had the head ported, supertech valves and the guy skimmed it. That was on my old PH1

I couldn't get the cam belt tensioner to set it the correct position and in the end had to buy a larger idler pulley.

These engines don't like the heads being skimmed.

 

[Brendan2234]

Won't be removing the head just to change stem seals, however if the compression test comes back bad it does look like a new engine is going to be the way forward ill keep the thread updated as soon as I've got any news to report!

 

[Brendan2234]

Well I've done a compression test.

Cylinder 1: 210 psi
Cylinder 2: 205 psi
Cylinder 3: 205 psi
Cylinder 4: 210 psi.

That's as good a result as any I've seen so I think the engine and valves are good it's just the stem seals that need changing.

 

[Brendan2234]

Thought I'd update this as I realised I never got round to it! As the compression check results were good I decided to go ahead and sort this engine out. A good look over it and I replaced all the belts and pulleys, water pump, resealed the cam cover and fitted a new sump gasket, new cam seals both ends, new spark plugs and HT leads, and replaced all the valve stem seals which was a right pain in the arse!

Checked the timing before I started, it was way off! The car used to cut out straight after starting occasionally, think this was probably the cause.

Tnd seal kit and new selector bush fitted in the gearbox.

My modified sealey valve spring compressor setup. Had to take it to bits as the valve stem seals are recessed in the head so the hooks can't grip the bottom of the springs, instead I have to push down as hard as I could on the gear knob and use a mixture of magnets and screw drivers to remove and refit the collets. Very fiddly!

New seals in

old knackered seal, there were quite a few in this state in the end surprised I didn't get a lot more oil burn than I was suffering!

So, got the car all back together, and other than a dodgy crank sensor plug that had me scratching my head for a day or two it fired right up and is running as sweet as a nut!

Gear change is much improved, haven't had any crunching in any gears yet, I think the poly bushed dog bone mount, new selector bush and actually having some oil in it has helped there. Also sorted out the steering, had power flex rack mount bushes and new inner tie rods, gaiters and track rod ends, but I didn't get the alignment quite right so it feels a bit odd and won't hold a straight line, the wheel keeps wanting to flop left or right hopefully a four wheel alignment setup will cure this and then I can start giving it a proper seeing too!

 

[Brendan2234]

Dunno what's going on with the pictures, trying to use Dropbox to host them but it doesn't seem to want to play

 

[STEVE.M]

Thought I'd update this as I realised I never got round to it! As the compression check results were good I decided to go ahead and sort this engine out. A good look over it and I replaced all the belts and pulleys, water pump, resealed the cam cover and fitted a new sump gasket, new cam seals both ends, new spark plugs and HT leads, and replaced all the valve stem seals which was a right pain in the arse!

Checked the timing before I started, it was way off! The car used to cut out straight after starting occasionally, think this was probably the cause.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0lofm2dev6k3fda/20170820_104957-1.jpg?dl=0

Tnd seal kit and new selector bush fitted in the gearbox.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ky8qu1abv84ghi/20170820_185407-1.jpg?dl=0

My modified sealey valve spring compressor setup. Had to take it to bits as the valve stem seals are recessed in the head so the hooks can't grip the bottom of the springs, instead I have to push down as hard as I could on the gear knob and use a mixture of magnets and screw drivers to remove and refit the collets. Very fiddly!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4mnkzffe2cynt6/20170916_120029.jpg?dl=0
New seals in

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3vqi32c1gzgjo16/20170916_120008.jpg?dl=0

old knackered seal, there were quite a few in this state in the end surprised I didn't get a lot more oil burn than I was suffering!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z1niz21bcnqyx4b/20170916_133746.jpg?dl=0
So, got the car all back together, and other than a dodgy crank sensor plug that had me scratching my head for a day or two it fired right up and is running as sweet as a nut!

Gear change is much improved, haven't had any crunching in any gears yet, I think the poly bushed dog bone mount, new selector bush and actually having some oil in it has helped there. Also sorted out the steering, had power flex rack mount bushes and new inner tie rods, gaiters and track rod ends, but I didn't get the alignment quite right so it feels a bit odd and won't hold a straight line, the wheel keeps wanting to flop left or right hopefully a four wheel alignment setup will cure this and then I can start giving it a proper seeing too!

Good work!
Shame about the pics though.

 

[Brendan2234]

The links work just can't get the Dropbox links to work normal img tags aren't playing, perhaps it doesn't allow direct hotlinking for forums.

 

[Brendan2234]

 

[Stay Puft]

Good work. Were you close to the £1500 predicted? Now chuck it on a dyno and see if it's making power!

 

[Brendan2234]

To be honest I'm a bit worried to add it all up! I think the car set me back 580 and all the parts have probably cleared 600 quid, not including the 150 quid on the timing tools which I'll hopefully make most back when I sell them.

All in I'd guess the car owes me about £1200 now, which isn't that great as it's done 122k and it could still do with a bit of cosmetic tlc, got some lacquer peel on the bumper from a bad spray job, there's a wiper scuff in the windscreen I need to try and polish out and the headlights could do with polishing too. It could really do with a new osf tyre too as the mot is due in a few weeks, so hopefully that won't bring up any extra costs!

I'd be interested to get it on a dyno to see how its general health is and how good a job I did with the timing, I've got a mate with a low mileage 182 that I believe is still on its original belt so I might see if he fancies a spin sometime to compare performance!

 

[Stay Puft]

To be honest I'm a bit worried to add it all up! I think the car set me back 580 and all the parts have probably cleared 600 quid, not including the 150 quid on the timing tools which I'll hopefully make most back when I sell them.

All in I'd guess the car owes me about £1200 now, which isn't that great as it's done 122k and it could still do with a bit of cosmetic tlc, got some lacquer peel on the bumper from a bad spray job, there's a wiper scuff in the windscreen I need to try and polish out and the headlights could do with polishing too. It could really do with a new osf tyre too as the mot is due in a few weeks, so hopefully that won't bring up any extra costs!

I'd be interested to get it on a dyno to see how its general health is and how good a job I did with the timing, I've got a mate with a low mileage 182 that I believe is still on its original belt so I might see if he fancies a spin sometime to compare performance!

Still, not bad at all. Thankfully you're good with the spanners, like me. All the things you've listed aren't pricey jobs!

 

[Brendan2234]

It would have been less stressful if I was good with the spanners, unfortunately I'm only mediocre! And yeah if I booked it into a renault sport specialist for all this I'd have a four figure bill easily.

But it's now had pretty much every major job at the front end ticked off now, I still need to get the air con recharged as well but hopefully I can get a fresh mot on it next week and then it'll be a reliable motor with the peace of mind that everything's been done!

I might even get the modifying bug then you never know :smile:

 

[leeds2592]

I'd be interested to get it on a dyno to see how its general health is and how good a job I did with the timing, I've got a mate with a low mileage 182 that I believe is still on its original belt so I might see if he fancies a spin sometime to compare performance!

He's never had the belts done?! That's a disaster waiting to happen.

Good work on your part though. Just over a grand still isn't bad and at least you've got the piece of mind that it's good.

 

[Brendan2234]

Got the wheel alignment done today, what a difference! Got confidence in pressing on with the car now, didn't feel comfortable accelerating before the pulling and tramlining was so bad. It feels quite quick now I'm able to properly run it through the gears, and there's no sign of crunching into any of the gears either so it looks like I've cured the linkage and box problems too.

 

[Darren S]

Thread bump.

Great work there - especially getting stuck in yourself. I would have HAD to take some soapy water/mild degreaser to the outside of the lump before putting it back in. I couldn't put the engine back in looking like that. ?