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shiftspark
ClioSport Club Member
R53 GR86
Is yours a valver,pink and was at New Brighton this year ?
mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
No different to run from any other clio really, they only things that need more attention are regular oil changes on the gearbox and keeping the rose joints on the hubs clean and lubricated or they wear out faster and at £90 a pair for the proper ones you want to get the most out of them you can.
I do have some spares which i have manged to acquire over the last couple of years as my car did not come with much of a spares package. The parts you will find hard to get hold of are things like hubs, driveshafts, subframes etc. Most of the other parts are just standard clio stuff.
If your thinking of getting one for rallying i would just stick with the pink car and get a sequential for it, there will be no benifit and just more expense converting a mk2 cup racer.
Yes it was...Got a class result in the end but clutch cable issues hampered us in the afternoon...!
Want a Mk 2 Cup racer subframe
Box will probably go in the Pink car (Last upgrade it needs to keep up with these Mk2's!!) and build a Mk2 shell for the future..
shiftspark
ClioSport Club Member
R53 GR86
Ah brill I did it many years ago and a good few sprints.
You were on motors the other night, car looked very good !
When are you out next ?
You were on motors the other night, car looked very good !
When are you out next ?
Cars is great and up there fighting for class at every event now, box is the last piece of the jigsaw..!
JC5 box with Gripper diff and 5.2 Final drive for sale section soon....might be of interest..?
This was the box we have used for the last few years and been great, just rebuilt. 115mph at 7k in top.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNyRPNHs2iM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5I4Ei2ojfo&feature=related
Some footage from the event...!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5I4Ei2ojfo&feature=related
Some footage from the event...!
Looking at the Mk1 and Mk2 subframes and the cup engine mounts it looks as if the mounts are a direct fit on the MK1 subframe and the Mk2 cup subframe was modded to suit.!
The UK cup racer box was used on the Mk1 Group A clio so maybe thats why (Europe cup cars used the generic Sadev St75 box).
The UK cup racer box was used on the Mk1 Group A clio so maybe thats why (Europe cup cars used the generic Sadev St75 box).
mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
That is a possibility, but from what i can remember of my old valvers subframe and the one on my cup the mounts on the cup subframe sit higher up? i may be wrong as im just going by memory. Either way though you dont actually have to use the cup engine mounts, the STDSA is based on a JC5 casing so should bolt up using the standard mounts no problem.
mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
Looks pretty rapid even with the H pattern in them video's what it like to hold onto with that sort of power?
230bhp, no power steering and 8 inch Michelin slicks, its a good work out on tight twisty stuff.!!!! may pinch the Cup racer Power steering pump and get PS sorted.!!!
shiftspark
ClioSport Club Member
R53 GR86
I would have had it but I fitted a quaife earlier this year but I know someone who is after one.
Looking to get back into rallying although racing is coming out alot cheaper car prep wise.
Looking to get back into rallying although racing is coming out alot cheaper car prep wise.
mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
Haha brave man, i find my arms tiring even with PAS. Mind you the diffs in the Sadev are bloody tight 85% lock up iirc. How much are the Michelins and where do you get them from? been wanting to give them a try, currently use dunlops which i find are good but have heard michelins are far better.
Michelin (Changed back from BF branding) rally tyres are ££££ 20/58 15" are 230quid and you can only buy from one distributor Pro tyre. They are better than dunlops mainly in that they last longer and have a bigger temp window (so only need 2 compounds soft and medium). Not cheap when you may go through a set of 4 in a rally.!!!!
At least with a Sadev box you will have 2 hands on the wheel more of the time so give me a fighting chance.!!!!
n H pattern sadev dog box would be just as quick as a sequnential in reality. If you watch the old WRC rallying, amongst the group A clios in the lower classes, quite often the fastest clio was an H pattern one ahead of sequantial cars.
There is an interview someone on youtube where ragnotti says he is quicker with the H pattern. Its in french though, so you need to find the translated version.
There is an interview someone on youtube where ragnotti says he is quicker with the H pattern. Its in french though, so you need to find the translated version.
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182cup & 172 racecar
We ran with these in the Hungarian Clio Cup.
182cup & 172 racecar
Sequential+ flatshift will beat a H pattern anyday,and I have driven both.
Give me a good mechanical reason why a sequnetial gearbox should have a quicker change than an H pattern box in a rally car.
And the fact remains that the GrA clio 16s H pattern cars often finished ahead of the sequential ones. The 1994 Monte Carlo Rally being one good example. So in a mk1 clio, the H pattern is historically just as fast.
I think you will find the reason the sequential gearboxes became popular was because they produce less driver error while shifting. At lower levels in motorsport, that probably saves time. However, as stated before, Ragnotti was faster with an H pattern, but then he knew what he was doing.
I would suggest than compared to your synchromesh box with lower final drive, a proper short ratio box will provide a competitive advantage. Especially a dog box, which is less than half the price of a sequential box.
Sorry this post is a little too logical for the usual internet meme repeaters. I know some people dont like thinking outside the box or challenging their world view. I would just ignore it and move on with your own fantasy forum repetition if it makes you feel better.
And the fact remains that the GrA clio 16s H pattern cars often finished ahead of the sequential ones. The 1994 Monte Carlo Rally being one good example. So in a mk1 clio, the H pattern is historically just as fast.
I think you will find the reason the sequential gearboxes became popular was because they produce less driver error while shifting. At lower levels in motorsport, that probably saves time. However, as stated before, Ragnotti was faster with an H pattern, but then he knew what he was doing.
I would suggest than compared to your synchromesh box with lower final drive, a proper short ratio box will provide a competitive advantage. Especially a dog box, which is less than half the price of a sequential box.
Sorry this post is a little too logical for the usual internet meme repeaters. I know some people dont like thinking outside the box or challenging their world view. I would just ignore it and move on with your own fantasy forum repetition if it makes you feel better.
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mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
If you had 2 identical clio's both with the same gear ratio's and final drive. One sequential and one a H pattern dog, send them down the quarter mile with the same driver the sequential equiped car will be marginally faster. The sequential will allways be superior as the shift times are faster, and there is no chance of selecting the wrong gear and blowing the box up. But what you have to weigh up is will spending twice as much on a sequential be worth it when its only marginally faster than the equivalent dog box?
Plus we arnt talking about 1/4 miling anfd so milliseconds doesnt make any real difference. In a club level mk1 rally car an H pattern will be just as quick, but less than half the cost.
mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
Yeah so over a rally stage that extra second or so gained could be the difference between beating someone and not...
Also as far as i know no one does a 6 speed dog box for the clio like in the Group A cars anymore, so the only option is a 5 speed which will be a hell of allot slower than a 6 speed sequential with flat shift..
But then the 5 speed is 5 kgs less in weight. Might save the second over the stage you lost from the millisecond gear changes. And the 2.5 to 3 k you save in money, you could chuck at the car in other places and easily gain back the second and more.
My personal opinion is that if the pink rally car has manual steering like we are told, then the driver will be losing lots of time with that. Add back PAS and i bet the car goes faster. I have read so many comparisons between manual and PAS and the PAS is always quicker. Cheaper than buying a 7k box.
My personal opinion is that if the pink rally car has manual steering like we are told, then the driver will be losing lots of time with that. Add back PAS and i bet the car goes faster. I have read so many comparisons between manual and PAS and the PAS is always quicker. Cheaper than buying a 7k box.
182cup & 172 racecar
We can turn our PS off,but I must admit I'd rather drive it with it on,Too much like hard work.
Ignor this clown its spongeRob squarepants and is banned....
Sequential quicker than a h pattern dogbox as i have driven both in a clio. 1-2 seconds a stage x 12 stages is the difference in winning and losing the class win.
Sequential quicker than a h pattern dogbox as i have driven both in a clio. 1-2 seconds a stage x 12 stages is the difference in winning and losing the class win.
A sequential is quicker?
Really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdhGmL5uD_k&feature=related
Please explain how he could change gear any quicker than he is. And please explain why they fitted H pattern boxes to the F2 Maxi cars if sequentials were permitted, and in your opinion 'faster'?
I understand that you believe that sequential gearboxes are faster because you have heard other people repeat the same information without ever stopping to think about it. But sometimes it is a good idea to stop and assess thre data before you just pass on the meme.
Looking at your video i can now confirm sequential is quicker, especially down down shifts. Hands would spend more time on the wheel to so safer.
Maybe you should give prodrive a call and tell them that H patterns the way to go in the new Mini to beat the Citroens.
Maybe you should give prodrive a call and tell them that H patterns the way to go in the new Mini to beat the Citroens.
So youtube is your assement criteria LOL as said spoken like a person who has never competed. Go and do a couple of years competitive motorsport and people may even listen to you.....
You do realise that an H pattern is essentially the same internals but does not select the gears sequentially?
The only difference is that you move the gears with a different lever. If you move the lever at the same speed, the gears change at the same speed. The downshift is the same action. Dog gear to gear. Mechanically the gearbox doesnt know the difference. It is mechanically the same action.
So please explain how a sequential box is faster.
The only difference is that you move the gears with a different lever. If you move the lever at the same speed, the gears change at the same speed. The downshift is the same action. Dog gear to gear. Mechanically the gearbox doesnt know the difference. It is mechanically the same action.
So please explain how a sequential box is faster.
Again, logic does not seem to be your strong point. Just as Adrian Newey doesnt need to be a World Cahmpion racing driver to design a quick racing car, i dont need 'a couple of years competitive motorsport' (re: some very basic low level club motorsport) experience to know how a gearbox works. All i need is some logic and a basic grasp of GCSE science.
A dog gear is a dog gear. A cog is a cog. The cogs and dog gears in sadev and hewland sequential and H pattern boxes are the same. There is no mechanical difference. No magic pixies live in the box and sprinkle special dust on the sequential components. They are the same and the speed of change comes from the fact that the gears engage under full engine load (with a cut out) with no need for the clutch. As both boxes contain the same structural components and are under the influence of the same mechanical forces, the only variable is the change mechanism (ie the lever and its connection to the gears).
Therefore the speed of change is related to the movement of the lever. Now i know this might be hard for you, but just try to understand that it is irrelevant if you are moving a sequential lever backwards once, or a non-sequential lever the same distance forward once. Once the lever has reached its final position the gear is changed and the action complete.
Considering that the SDTSA box has both a sequential and an H pattern variant with 6 gears, i can see no reason why the sequential version should be any quicker than the H pattern. In fact if you go over to trident motorsportforum, Gareth has been running the H pattern STDSA for years in his championship winning sprint car. With 6 gears. Check it out (williams 0089), you might learn something.
So please explain why there would be a difference in change speed?
I remember you had a similar inability to grasp the concept that changing the final drive on a JC5 box is not the same as changing the ratio of the individual gears. So i am not holding out too much hope that you will understand my explanation. I will draw some pictures next time and colour them in for you.
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mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
I fully understand what you are saying, i also completely agree that a dog box is better value for money than sequential for a clubman type car as the money would be better spent elsewhere. You are also completly right in saying that the STDSA h pattern and sequential will physically shift from one gear to another at the same speed. But with the H pattern you cannot have flat shift and this is where the sequential gains its time.
By gear change we all mean from the time that the power is disengaged from the transmission, the physical next gear is selected, and the power then re-engaged back to the transmission. This all takes place in a split second on a sequential there is no time wasted, with a dog box its your right foot making the power cut which will allways take longer than an ECU is capable of. Sequentials are simply better in most cases and they are very easy to use. Ill allways say buy the best you can afford, and if you can afford a decent sequential.. buy one..
Not sure what the reasoning was with the clio maxi but maybe the 7 speed hewland's ratio's wasnt very well matched to the clio's engine, the later more highly strung engine of the megane maxi pretty much allways used the 7 speed hewland... Or maybe Jean Ragnotti is just set in his ways and prefers H pattern.. either way id have sequential weather its marginally slower or not.
