Fao itb users

[MG cup]

I could have done it for just over 2k with £1400 of that being Jenvey ITB's, carbon airbox and filter, solid fuel rail, 90mm trumpets, polo rad, omex 600 and basic splice in loom (s**t). Cat cams 421 at £500

I decided to upgrade on some things like the loom at £600 which included full race spec loom with raychem wires and heat shrink, zetec crank sensor/bracket and adaptor box, all new temp sensors and TPS, launch control and full throttle shift buttons, added relays for fan and fuel pump to allow complete scrapping of O.E loom. Braided fuel lines and aeroquip fittings £170, oil catch tank and aeroquip fittings £115, 120mm trumpets £160, port matched all ITB's and manifold( few hours work with a drill if thats all you have) Alloy radiator £160, megane injectors £160. mk1 pedal and cable £20.

So all that comes up to a total £3,285 and say another £100 for consumables like extra seals/bolts or whatever £250 mapping max .Afaic fot £3600 that is pretty much the best specced port throttle kit with everything required to squeeze under a clio bonnet without going 8 injector system etc. Pretty reasonable considering what's included and the price of some basic bolt on kits from likes of ktec at £2400 that is inferior in quality and doesn't include cams, breather, radiotor etc.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Z-tec crank sensor is s**t. At least mine was, used to lose sync all the time. K-Tec kit is Jenvey FYI, quality isn't an issue. A lot easier to pick up an old set though.

 

[MG cup]

Im not saying it isn't a Jenvey kit but DTH kits aren't as good for out and out results as Individual kits. When I say inferior im not saying its a bad kit what so ever, it does what it says on the tin, there are better packages out there.

It can't be any worse than the Renault part, I have replaced 5 in 3 years on my mum's 1.2 clio which is a similar design/manufacturer to the 1*2 CPS. Zetec electric components have been swapped onto many cars in rallying and circuit racing for years now, they are a proven upgrade.

 

[Llewellyn]

I think you've all missed my point and taken my comment a little bit out of context. ''I just didn't come away with any other feeling than flatness'' I meant within myself, a kind of disappointment, not that the car was ''flat'', it just wasn't for me.
My comments are based on this car in particular and IMO it just seemed to be a slight improvement over a standard 172(considering the cash invloved), but far noisier. LOL
After my experience, I would strongly suggest the OP drives a clio of similar spec to that of which he wishes to build and see if it's for him, I'm certainly not suggesting that all ITB'd clio owners simply experience a placebo effect, that was a bl00dy joke.

If it feels flat it's not healthy, could be down to any number of reasons. Mapping, balancing, crap filter, dodgy sensor. If it's set up right it will be the complete opposite of flat. The standard setup / inlet is flat as a pancake. That's the whole point.

If it felt flat then there was an issue with the car.
And no it's not a placebo affect - I drive a diesel passat every day and when I get in the clio is makes me grin like a nut case

I doubt it was 204bhp anymore then TBH mate, that should certainly be enough to really notice over a standard car, but lots and lots of these cars are making nowhere near what their owners think they still are.

Definitely. A 204bhp clio should be a lot more on the fun side of 'flat'

 

[Cup_Phil]

It's still a very strange opinion to have unless the car you drove was a very very bad one

 

[Chip-mk1]

It's still a very strange opinion to have unless the car you drove was a very very bad one

Not if you are used to going in things that are quicker TBH.

When I drive an ITB car after now I have driven my turbo, its pretty underwhelming as well, yes its quicker than standard but it does leave you thinking "is that it?" a bit considering the expenditure

 

[Dan519]

Im not saying it isn't a Jenvey kit but DTH kits aren't as good for out and out results as Individual kits.

Bemused by this. Just isn't true, looking at it purely from a hardware point of view a specific set cannot be a downgrade from universal parts bolted together.

You may not like the rest of the package, which is down to preference, but the the DTH kit usually give a better peak torque.
Whe I do an install, I offer options on top of the kit, so different filtration, different trumpet lengths, whatever is desirable to tweak really.

 

[Laine_16v]

Heres my old graph, co-incdently 204bhp peak like the 421'd car lleywelyn drove. Couldnt be any further from flat if it tried. Wonder if the car wasnt running right?

 

[mitch1503]

Im going to be fitting jenveys quite soon just need to get round to bying a ecu(gonna use gen90) but with weather etc been a bit lazy. But after I buy the ecu if will of cost me a bit over £1700 all in including areo catches, smaller rad so I can run 120 mm trumpets. gonna fit myself then get it mapped at rstuning so prob end up around the £2100 all in. not bad when you think its about 1200 for just the jenveys new.

saw a GEN90 going for around 850 the other night off a car thats being broke

 

[Mar172]

Is it still for sale ?

 

[Thrust-Rated]

I know I may sound like a right noob right now. But is it possible to fit ITB's to a phase2 without changing ECU?

 

[mark123]

Any thing is possible, but there wouldn't much point.

I'm sure I remember someone had posted up a pic showing the DBW TB connected to the ITBs. So it opened the ITB butterflies.

They don't work particularly well when a map sensor is used to calculate the load, that is the problem really.

 

[mitch1503]

Any thing is possible, but there wouldn't much point.

I'm sure I remember someone had posted up a pic showing the DBW TB connected to the ITBs. So it opened the ITB butterflies.

They don't work particularly well when a map sensor is used to calculate the load, that is the problem really.

yeah the videos on youtube, some foreign country

 

[mark123]

Bemused by this. Just isn't true, looking at it purely from a hardware point of view a specific set cannot be a downgrade from universal parts bolted together.

You may not like the rest of the package, which is down to preference, but the the DTH kit usually give a better peak torque.
Whe I do an install, I offer options on top of the kit, so different filtration, different trumpet lengths, whatever is desirable to tweak really.

Do the ktec DTH bodies make similar power to the generic Jenvey ones on high comp builds as well? I did notice the injector position was closer to the valve on the DTH kits compared to the generic ones.

 

[Thrust-Rated]

Cheers for response. I understand where your coming from.
My mates looking at getting a 1*2 and wants to fit bodies. Just wondered about the options.

 

[mi16chris]

thanks for all the input lads , i would love even a run in a clio of that spec but in northern Ireland there just is not any

il see how it gos over the next few months £ wise

 

[Dan519]

Do the ktec DTH bodies make similar power to the generic Jenvey ones on high comp builds as well? I did notice the injector position was closer to the valve on the DTH kits compared to the generic ones.

I've not personally used the DTH setup on a high comp engine yet, but K-tec have on several and they work well.
Injector position (distance and angle) were experimented with a fair bit in flow modelling to get them right

 

[MG cup]

Bemused by this. Just isn't true, looking at it purely from a hardware point of view a specific set cannot be a downgrade from universal parts bolted together.

You may not like the rest of the package, which is down to preference, but the the DTH kit usually give a better peak torque.
Whe I do an install, I offer options on top of the kit, so different filtration, different trumpet lengths, whatever is desirable to tweak really.

I have no problem with the rest of the kit, it looks well put together and simple to fit for anyone with there install video. Just my preference really, individuals is what you will see on 90% of well built race cars and if im not wrong then Jenvey ITB's have a larger diameter than the DTH kit. I have just always seen them as a bit of a trade off.

 

[Djw John]

Wheres Russ? He itb'd his black ph1 for under a grand, £700 comes to mind actually.

 

[Llewellyn]

It's still a very strange opinion to have unless the car you drove was a very very bad one

TBH, you finding someone not agreeing with the masses is what's strange here :lolup:
I've formed an opinion on the experience I had and advised the OP to, try before he buys.
I'm not suggesting that it's a 'fact' and that ITB's are a waste, merely that a low mileage 172 with a Ktec fitted jenvey kit and cat cams(421) was a disappointment to drive, yes the throttle response was immediate and it was reasonably quick, but do I personally think it's worth spending £4K plus, I'm afraid not, just my opinion though.
Don't really see why you find that so hard to grasp, hardly makes me a weirdo! LOL

 

[mi16chris]

I have no problem with the rest of the kit, it looks well put together and simple to fit for anyone with there install video. Just my preference really, individuals is what you will see on 90% of well built race cars and if im not wrong then Jenvey ITB's have a larger diameter than the DTH kit. I have just always seen them as a bit of a trade off.

I know the works s1600 106s and Saxos all used dth itbs mate tho not jenveys

 

[mi16chris]

TBH, you finding someone not agreeing with the masses is what's strange here :lolup:
I've formed an opinion on the experience I had and advised the OP to, try before he buys.
I'm not suggesting that it's a 'fact' and that ITB's are a waste, merely that a low mileage 172 with a Ktec fitted jenvey kit and cat cams(421) was a disappointment to drive, yes the throttle response was immediate and it was reasonably quick, but do I personally think it's worth spending £4K plus, I'm afraid not, just my opinion though.
Don't really see why you find that so hard to grasp, hardly makes me a weirdo! LOL

I can understand we're ur coming from man it's a lot of cash , time to track down a clio in ni with itbs lol

 

[Silent_Scone]

That and also some people expect blood for nothing anyway so go in expecting 5 cans for the price of one. BHP PER POUND break down plz. Any less and your money back yeh?

 

[Dan519]

I have no problem with the rest of the kit, it looks well put together and simple to fit for anyone with there install video. Just my preference really, individuals is what you will see on 90% of well built race cars and if im not wrong then Jenvey ITB's have a larger diameter than the DTH kit. I have just always seen them as a bit of a trade off.

DTH's are just rarer!! they only make them for about half a dozen engines at the moment, so of course you don't see them so often.
Diameter of the butterfly.....well the DTH's are a 45, which is the right size for the engine. You can buy SF's and DCOE's in a range of sizes, the Clio setup from jenvey, using SF's use a 45

 

[Cup_Phil]

Not if you are used to going in things that are quicker TBH.

When I drive an ITB car after now I have driven my turbo, its pretty underwhelming as well, yes its quicker than standard but it does leave you thinking "is that it?" a bit considering the expenditure

He specifically said his normal drive is a diesel van lol

I think people underestimate the speed to be honest - saying it's a waste of money blah blah
£2.5k will see you a set of bodies on and setup, £850 will see you a ph1 172 - or £1500 will get you a 172 cup. - so £4k all in (forget the cams).
What else would you get for £4k that's as quick?

I've literally destroyed imprezas, evos, elises, etc.. on track.

I'm not the biggest fan of 172's - you only have to search through my previous posts to see I've considered selling it lots recently - but IMO you'd have to spend £10k+ to get something more fun and quicker - so I fail to see how a £2.5k set of bodies isn't worth it lol

 

[Dan519]

if im not wrong then Jenvey ITB's have a larger diameter than the DTH kit. I have just always seen them as a bit of a trade off.

I think i've just realised that you're refering to the AT-Power DTH throttles which do indeed run a significantly smaller butterfly (oval port shaped, and area equivalent to about a 40mm round butterfly). If so then I understand where your opinion is based. Inferior kit made with some very odd specs. Throttle plate too close to the head/valve, and injectors similarly compromised. VERY different proposition to the KTR set which is made and designed by jenvey

 

[Tony Hunter]

So you're say AT's are bad then?

 

[BIGASH]

I went and spoke to the chap at Jenvey at the autosport show and was trying to get him to sell me a set of Jenveys to replace the AT's as no one has actual told me what improvement I would see from the swap. He explained a few things but said himself the difference would be barely noticeable he did suggest getting a set of the SF's would be a better move for me than the DTH K-tec ones though.

 

[Silent_Scone]

It's more from a fitting / quality perspective mate. But least he was honest

 

[MG cup]

DTH's are just rarer!! they only make them for about half a dozen engines at the moment, so of course you don't see them so often.
Diameter of the butterfly.....well the DTH's are a 45, which is the right size for the engine. You can buy SF's and DCOE's in a range of sizes, the Clio setup from jenvey, using SF's use a 45

I would think the 48mm straight or 48 to 45mm will suit a racecar better, no?

I think i've just realised that you're refering to the AT-Power DTH throttles which do indeed run a significantly smaller butterfly (oval port shaped, and area equivalent to about a 40mm round butterfly). If so then I understand where your opinion is based. Inferior kit made with some very odd specs. Throttle plate too close to the head/valve, and injectors similarly compromised. VERY different proposition to the KTR set which is made and designed by jenvey

I have always been told that a good individual set of bodies with good manifold will out perform most DTH as they are usually made for cars with packaging issues. I have no technical reason to back this up although individuals are almost always more expensive, that says something to me. Not just jenvey but in the jap seen as well.

So you're say AT's are bad then?

I don't think there bad but their is better to be had I have been told. Correct me if im wrong but the advantages of yours with the butterfly close to the valves is a very snappy accelerator and more power down the revs from injector being close to valves also. They suffer a bit at high revs and with diameter's of butterflys aren't ideal.

I went and spoke to the chap at Jenvey at the autosport show and was trying to get him to sell me a set of Jenveys to replace the AT's as no one has actual told me what improvement I would see from the swap. He explained a few things but said himself the difference would be barely noticeable he did suggest getting a set of the SF's would be a better move for me than the DTH K-tec ones though.

I got advised to have some 48mm parallels from Jenvey that would suit my current spec but would work better with high compression engine that I plan, I currently have 45mm parallels that have been ported to fit 48mm trumpets, they will do me as they were cheap.

 

[Tony Hunter]

I'll stick. It seems quick enough to me.

 

[Chip-mk1]

So you're say AT's are bad then?

They arent as reliable as the jenveys, and if you are big power levels (240+) they dont atomise the fuel as well, I know of people who have made motorsport engines using both and found they hit a wall with the AT's that wasnt there with the Jenveys.

For anything that people on this site are going to want for tintops or trackdays etc though, performance wise it really doesnt make a significant difference. Length chosen on the trumpets actually matters far more than which bodies are used at 210-240 where most people on here will end up.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Exactly.

 

[mark123]

I thought the ATs did something different that meant they didn't need the same diameter to flow as much as a similar jenvey setup?

 

[Chip-mk1]

I thought the ATs did something different that meant they didn't need the same diameter to flow as much as a similar jenvey setup?

Yes that is correct,they sit much nearer to the port where the butterfly doesnt need to be as big.
Its meaningless to compare the 2 diameters when they are at such different parts in the runner.

 

[Aydon182]

What else would you get for £4k that's as quick?

Alot.
just off the top of my head,

various spec's of 205 gti's inc 8v turbo's
z20let corsa's
older model imprezza's
106 gti on jenveys
megane 225
starlet Gt turbo's

too many to mention.

but IMO you'd have to spend £10k+ to get something more fun and quicker

IMO you wouldn't.

 

[Jonny Waugh]

I'm no car expert phil but your clio must be absolutely rapid if it can beat an evo round a track I have a 172 and my brother has a evo 6 with basic mods and map(not sure on power but probs over 350bhp), his car is like 5 times quicker then mine there's not a chance in hell I could keep up with him, the real sickner is I'm not exaggerating that much, how much power your clio got?

 

[Tony Hunter]

I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but not a lot beats a clio on 'track', ask most people. We've been to Bedford, Brands, Mallory etc, along with much bigger machinery, and never get passed all day.

Of course I know an Evo, Gt3 etc are quicker down your local by-pass, but on track, they take some beating.

 

[BIGASH]

I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but not a lot beats a clio on 'track', ask most people. We've been to Bedford, Brands, Mallory etc, along with much bigger machinery, and never get passed all day.

Of course I know an Evo, Gt3 etc are quicker down your local by-pass, but on track, they take some beating.

Got to agree Clio's do take some beating, I sold mine about 4 years ago now and had to come crawling back for another!

 

[Tony Hunter]

Hi