Best trackday brake set up advice please !

[cossydoctor]

I have a 182 that i have done a couple of track days in the car does not get used on road it just sits in garage ! I cooked 3 sets of cheap pads last time out and also the front discs !
So next track day is approching and i want a new brake set up what are people using what would you recomend !
Thanks in advance !

 

[Joe#]

DS2500 pads with Brembo HC discs is a very common setup on here. Which I use myself and highly rate.

The best place to buy pads/discs is from @G 172 on here.

 

[-D4N-]

- Cup Racer Brake Ducts
- Brembo High Carbon Disks
- Ferrodo DS2500 Pads
- Braided Lines
- 5.1 fluid

 

[Russ_16v]

Depends on how hard you are on your brakes mate, to begin with I'd be replacing the front discs with a set of Brembo hc (g172 on here sells them cheap) with a set of decent pads (bedded in properly) with some fresh fluid in and see how that goes - you can go to more aggressive pads like some carbon Lorraine's which will eat discs more but will brake better.

Make sure you give the calipers a good clean - making sure they are both applying the same pressure makes a good difference.

Also remove your arch liners - helps get more cold air to the brakes

That really does make a good bit of difference.

 

[Chi]

3 sets of pads in one day? Nice going !!

 

[sbridgey]

DS3000 pads, Brembo HC discs and some kind of high end fluid, sorted.

 

[Tony Hunter]

How many times has this been covered.

About ten zillion.

 

[MG cup]

^^^ Aaaannd DS2500 and 3000 are rubbish IMO. They both leave deposits on the discs which give the sense of warped discs, you need to skim the discs to clear it.

For DS2500-3000 money you'll get much better pads that aren't even carbon metallic I.e won't ruin your body and wheel paint.

 

[cossydoctor]

Sorry if its been covered before you probably noticed i havnt posted much on here ive had cosworths and vw's for a long time i bought the clio simply as cheap track fun !
Thanks for the replys much appriciated !

 

[Will_bmx]

Just fitted some Carbon Lorraine RC5+ to my 182 ff. Sweet jesus. Combined with Brembo HC's. They stop. and quick. I've only given them some island and b road testing but so far they're incredible. Can't wait for Curborough next Saturday!
Minimal brake pressure needed so you can tickle the brakes to balance the car.

 

[Alexjfinch]

^^^ Aaaannd DS2500 and 3000 are rubbish IMO. They both leave deposits on the discs which give the sense of warped discs, you need to skim the discs to clear it.

For DS2500-3000 money you'll get much better pads that aren't even carbon metallic I.e won't ruin your body and wheel paint.

That's something I didn't know.

Took a buddy's track prepared 172 cup out for a run and thought it had a warped disc from the feedback through the pedal - I'll check the braking surfaces first!

 

[MarkCup]

You want a deposit of pad material on the surface...it's got to be even though or you'll get the vibration.

First session on any trackday I do is working on getting the brakes set for the day...repeated steadily increasing brake applications over the session to give the entire disc a nice coating of pad material.

Once done they function perfectly all day long.

Think of it like drag racers laying down rubber on the start line to give them a better launch (rubber grips rubber better than it grips tarmac), it's exactly the same in principle on pads/discs.

 

[sbridgey]

I'm gonna try that next time on track.

 

[George@RTR_Parts]

DS2500 pads with Brembo HC discs is a very common setup on here. Which I use myself and highly rate.

The best place to buy pads/discs is from @G 172 on here.

Cheers Joe, glad you're happy with them mate

You want a deposit of pad material on the surface...it's got to be even though or you'll get the vibration.

First session on any trackday I do is working on getting the brakes set for the day...repeated steadily increasing brake applications over the session to give the entire disc a nice coating of pad material.

Once done they function perfectly all day long.

Think of it like drag racers laying down rubber on the start line to give them a better launch (rubber grips rubber better than it grips tarmac), it's exactly the same in principle on pads/discs.

Don't you be coming on here talking sense and of experience Mark

I'm gonna try that next time on track.

It's similar to the bedding in procedure Si but not as strict

 

[Coops Mk1]

I have HC's and RC5+ pads, all you could ever want really

 

[MG cup]

That's something I didn't know.

Took a buddy's track prepared 172 cup out for a run and thought it had a warped disc from the feedback through the pedal - I'll check the braking surfaces first!

You want a deposit of pad material on the surface...it's got to be even though or you'll get the vibration.

First session on any trackday I do is working on getting the brakes set for the day...repeated steadily increasing brake applications over the session to give the entire disc a nice coating of pad material.

Once done they function perfectly all day long.

Think of it like drag racers laying down rubber on the start line to give them a better launch (rubber grips rubber better than it grips tarmac), it's exactly the same in principle on pads/discs.

Thats what you should always do really when you install pads anyway Mark, that's what bedding in is. Ds2500 and 3000 are known for leaving deposits and 2500 aren't any better than a Brembo pad IME except they don't fade quite as quick.... Still garbage IMO for the price.

Google "warped discs ds2500 or 3000" and you'll see its not just me.

 

[MarkCup]

Thats what you should always do really when you install pads anyway Mark, that's what bedding in is. Ds2500 and 3000 are known for leaving deposits and 2500 aren't any better than a Brembo pad IME except they don't fade quite as quick.... Still garbage IMO for the price.

If it's for track use then you'll want, and should be able to keep always, a nice even coating on the disc surface.

I find that mine eventually clean themselves of the deposits after a trackday through normal road use, takes some time, makes some fair amount of noise, and does introduce some vibration as it does it but they end up the standard steel silver colour again instead of the nice grey-ish-blue of the pad material.

 

[MG cup]

If it's for track use then you'll want, and should be able to keep always, a nice even coating on the disc surface.

I find that mine eventually clean themselves of the deposits after a trackday through normal road use, takes some time, makes some fair amount of noise, and does introduce some vibration as it does it but they end up the standard steel silver colour again instead of the nice grey-ish-blue of the pad material.

Yeah totally agree that you can get rid of the vibrations but for the deposits to start in your 2nd session of a day its impossible to get rid of unless your cruising for the remaining sessions. That's why I'll never buy ds2500 or 3000 pads again. I thought it might be exclusive to one model but I have bought and used them in standard callipers and meg 225 callipers on my track Clio now, it would be almost bearable if they were a great compound.

 

[Advikaz]

My brembos i've got to say do like a deposit when you give them a pasting.

But as a fast road pad they're not bad at all.

 

[scotiamr2t]

For DS2500-3000 money you'll get much better pads that aren't even carbon metallic I.e won't ruin your body and wheel paint.

Pads would you suggest using?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Pads would you suggest using?

Pagid blue are a really effective pad, but are expensive.

 

[Chip-mk1]

^^^ Aaaannd DS2500 and 3000 are rubbish IMO. They both leave deposits on the discs which give the sense of warped discs, you need to skim the discs to clear it.

For DS2500-3000 money you'll get much better pads that aren't even carbon metallic I.e won't ruin your body and wheel paint.

DS2500 are a great pad to use on a road and trackday car that doesnt get treated harshly under breaking.

In @lesley 182 where we both tend to drive it relatively steady on track as its her daily and she is not keen to crash it and im not keen to upset her by crashing it, they work really well for us.
But in something like my Mk1 (rip, lol) they would be totally unsuitable as in that I try and break as late as I possibly can and really really hard right at the limit of the tyres traction.


So it depends if you want a pad that will take very hard breaking, or one that will just take fairly hard breaking.


Les is starting to grow in confidence a bit now on the brakes, and as a result at croft I think she finally outgrew the ds2500 as she ended up with exactly the "I think my disks are warped" feeling that you describe, but as a starter pad thats not too dear and lasts absolutely ages for mainly road miles and has nice day to day manner I think they are ok.

 

[scotiamr2t]

braking is an important area so a little more expense is not an issue, would rather spend the extra and have a better more consistent pad

 

[MG cup]

Pads would you suggest using?

Performance friction, Carbon Lorraine, Hawk, Pagid like Chip says and I'm hearing more and more good reports of EBC yellow stuff upwards.

Im testing a set of yellow stuff on my r26 at the moment and I have a track day Monday night, hopefully they're a good pad.

 

[scotiamr2t]

I'll be up at knockhill to spectate on monday so may ask about an see what pads people are using an see how they rate them.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Performance friction, Carbon Lorraine, Hawk, Pagid like Chip says and I'm hearing more and more good reports of EBC yellow stuff upwards.

Im testing a set of yellow stuff on my r26 at the moment and I have a track day Monday night, hopefully they're a good pad.

The yellow stuff on my tarox 6 pots were rubbish and faded like hell, when I took them out they looked like they had been in a fire, I swapped to ds2500 and they were much better, which is ironic considering your comments, lol.


They seem to be quite application specific though those yellows, I know people who have used them on some cars and been really happy with them, E39 M5 for example and thats a brake demanding car!

 

[MG cup]

Yeah I have always stayed well clear of anything EBC from the fast car/max power days but their entire range has been re compounded (not sure if that's English) and I have heard quite good things about them.

The race pad (green iirc) is meant to be savage for the price.

Your yellows were old ones you had sitting about iirc?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah I have always stayed well clear of anything EBC from the fast car/max power days but their entire range has been re compounded (not sure if that's English) and I have heard quite good things about them.

The race pad (green iirc) is meant to be savage for the price.

Your yellows were old ones you had sitting about iirc?

They were new in about 2011 or so, as I used them for mocking up 6 pots onto my nova, then decided the clio needed them more and pinched them before they were ever used, so they were still new condition when they went on the clio and were I believe since the compound changed if that is what you mean? (as i know old yellow stuff used to fall apart, these didnt they just got very hot and faded)

green is the road pad, they are better than a standard pad and very good value but certainly arent as good as ds2500 etc.

 

[Coops Mk1]

I used to run EBC on the turbo with the hi specs, the yellowstuff were about the best but I tried yellow, green and red and none lived upto the RC6's I eventually ended up with

however this was 5-6 years back so as you say if they have revised their compounds then could be worth another shot if I ever decide the RC5+ in the track car are starting to let me down

 

[Fletcher]

I run Compbrake 4 pots and DS3000 pads. Epic stopping power and great pedal feel.

 

[MG cup]

I just googled, its the orange stuff that are the race pad and supposed to be quite good.

I'm not known for being very kind in a car so Monday will be a good test for them at Knockhill on my meg. I laughed when Tony said he was using yellow as a race pad with no problems but have since researched them a little and I'm quite hopeful. We'll see..... But at £99 for a set of pads if they're similar to a ds2500 but don't leave deposits I'll be happy enough.

And yes that's what I was getting at Chip, they were the old compound which they would be at circa 2011.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I just googled, its the orange stuff that are the race pad and supposed to be quite good.

I'm not known for being very kind in a car so Monday will be a good test for them at Knockhill on my meg. I laughed when Tony said he was using yellow as a race pad with no problems but have since researched them a little and I'm quite hopeful. We'll see..... But at £99 for a set of pads if they're similar to a ds2500 but don't leave deposits I'll be happy enough.

And yes that's what I was getting at Chip, they were the old compound which they would be at circa 2011.

I am fairly sure it was about 2009 they changed the compound.

Unless its changed again very recently.

 

[Tony Hunter]

I just googled, its the orange stuff that are the race pad and supposed to be quite good.

I'm not known for being very kind in a car so Monday will be a good test for them at Knockhill on my meg. I laughed when Tony said he was using yellow as a race pad with no problems but have since researched them a little and I'm quite hopeful. We'll see..... But at £99 for a set of pads if they're similar to a ds2500 but don't leave deposits I'll be happy enough.

And yes that's what I was getting at Chip, they were the old compound which they would be at circa 2011.

I've moved on to Blues now, but yellows did the job.

 

[John Gordon]

I need to see some vids of people on track. Specifically vids of those "Cooking" brakes.

I may sound like a nob banging on about this, but I have never ever run out of brakes on the Clio. I don't see how people are getting the brakes so hot.

Just for reference I did a trackday at the Ring with a track temp of over 35 degrees. Discs were from a company called Mtec (cheepo discs with holes and groves drilled into them) and the Mintex pads they sent with them. Not once did I cook them, and this is a cheap setup... the only issue I had with the brakes was the ABS kicking in coming down the hill into the hairpins as one wheel was lifting tricking the system.

I honestly would love to understand this, what am I or you doing wrong?

 

[Chip-mk1]

I need to see some vids of people on track. Specifically vids of those "Cooking" brakes.

I may sound like a nob banging on about this, but I have never ever run out of brakes on the Clio. I don't see how people are getting the brakes so hot.

Depends on the car and track, my turbo clio probably needs to lose 2-3 times the mph that you do every time we both enter a bend assuming we corner at similar speeds.

Tony's race clio by comparison is probably not needing to lose anymore than you at all, as although he will be a bit quicker on the straights as he has more power than standard, he can also carry more corner speed.

Just for reference I did a trackday at the Ring with a track temp of over 35 degrees. Discs were from a company called Mtec (cheepo discs with holes and groves drilled into them) and the Mintex pads they sent with them. Not once did I cook them, and this is a cheap setup... the only issue I had with the brakes was the ABS kicking in coming down the hill into the hairpins as one wheel was lifting tricking the system.

I honestly would love to understand this, what am I or you doing wrong?

you are going too slow to have a problem compared to us turbo boys.

 

[jon_r]

I've moved on to Blues now, but yellows did the job.

I've got blues on mine now having used yellow's for years, excellent pads (as were the yellow's really).

I tried DS2500's once on a Clio and I'm not a fan. They were terrible after our third straight lap on the Ring and stayed bad until they got dumped in the bin. Never again. I'm not even hard on the brakes.

 

[John Gordon]

you are going too slow to have a problem compared to us turbo boys.

Understand where your coming from. Perhaps that's it? dunno though, and I recall a lot of non turbo'd drivers complaining too.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Understand where your coming from. Perhaps that's it? dunno though, and I recall a lot of non turbo'd drivers complaining too.

Maybe those people are going too slow in the corners compared to you so need to slow down more.

The one time we had really bad fade on ds2500 in a fairly standard car was the session after my mrs had a spin at bedford, and she was a bit spooked by it so was slowing down far too much for each corner afterwards, she came in with the brakes faded to hell, but when I took it out on the next session I had no problems as I was carrying more corner speed than her so wasnt braking as much.

Its about a combination of:
speed the car is going before braking (power/weight)
speed the car is going after braking (cornering ability)
how hard and late you actually brake to achieve that drop in speed and hence how long they have to cool actually during the application of the braking not just after it

with the ds2500 for example, the deposits MG cup is talking about, IME you simply dont get if you brake relatively early and not too hard even if slowing down quite a lot, but you do get them if you stand on the brakes at the last second really hard.

 

[John Gordon]

Maybe those people are going too slow in the corners compared to you so need to slow down more.

The one time we had really bad fade on ds2500 in a fairly standard car was the session after my mrs had a spin at bedford, and she was a bit spooked by it so was slowing down far too much for each corner afterwards, she came in with the brakes faded to hell, but when I took it out on the next session I had no problems as I was carrying more corner speed than her so wasnt braking as much.

Its about a combination of:
speed the car is going before braking (power/weight)
speed the car is going after braking (cornering ability)
how hard and late you actually brake to achieve that drop in speed and hence how long they have to cool actually during the application of the braking not just after it

with the ds2500 for example, the deposits MG cup is talking about, IME you simply dont get if you brake relatively early and not too hard even if slowing down quite a lot, but you do get them if you stand on the brakes at the last second really hard.

I think people are breaking too early and longer (less pedal force) which is obviously dragging the brakes and would account for heat buildup.

I'm no expert race driver, but I like braking sharp and late, nose points in nice and then you get the neutral balance and can adjust the exit nice and smooth on the throttle.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I think people are breaking too early and longer (less pedal force) which is obviously dragging the brakes and would account for heat buildup.

I'm no expert race driver, but I like braking sharp and late, nose points in nice and then you get the neutral balance and can adjust the exit nice and smooth on the throttle.

My experience is that being on them for longer gives more time for heat transfer through into the calipers and through the disk, where as breaking late and hard is more likely to cause high temps at the surface of the pad.
Ultimately its the same amount of energy either way, its just a case of where it ends up concentrated.