172/182 Race Engine?

[Jimmy Brodie]

Hi All,

Currently slowly building a Clio race car for CSCC next year.

I’ve costed out the engine build using cams, pistons, valves etc.

In as wondering if any body had a sensibly priced race engine for sale?

Thanks

 

[imprezaworks]

@bob the builder

?

 

[davo172]

Should of taken it to btm before he emigrated and had a high comp race build .
It takes him 2 years to do then go's pop after two weeks but warranty expires straight away!

 

[robzracing]

You’re better to build one yourself. You just won’t know what you’re getting otherwise.
The more you can do yourself the better of course as race engine builders aren’t cheap.
Glad to hear another Clio coming to join us in Tin Tops next year!
If you have any questions I’m happy to help if I can.


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[Jimmy Brodie]

Thanks. Hopefully will be ready for the first round.

Lots of work to do. Will keep in touch.

 

[Mertin]

Pure Motorsport ones but hefty price tag

 

[vroomtshh]

@Russ Rallye had a really good one for sale. Not sure if it's away though

 

[Brucefil]

You cut costs on a race engine and you may end up like this.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[bloke]

Paint engine red, scientifically proven to add at least 20bhp.

 

[20vKarlos]

I’m interested in this and would like to know what you guys would all recommend for a parts list to build the engine.

I’ve always wanted to accomplish his sort of thing
??

 

[Sam Linssner]

I currently run in Tin tops with a standard engine. I’ve qualified exactly middle of the grid the last two outings. There’s other places to spend the money first ? any pics of the car?

 

[TheCAB]

I’m interested in this and would like to know what you guys would all recommend for a parts list to build the engine.

I’ve always wanted to accomplish his sort of thing
??

I’m interested in this and would like to know what you guys would all recommend for a parts list to build the engine.

I’ve always wanted to accomplish his sort of thing
??

Building a "real" race engine is greatly different from building an engine to deliver a few more bhp. It is far more than just bolting together a set of component parts. If you can undo nuts and bolts you may have the skill set to build an engine however you do need a real understanding of mechanical race engineering and the interactivity between parts to build a successful reliable race engine delivering decent power. Std 172 engines are reliable enough and deliver decent ish power, you wont win but you will consistently finish. For competitive fun keep stock bottom end / head and bolt on go faster goodies.

 

[davo172]

As said even clio cup cars run all std engine internals a lot of cash for not much gain IMO spend on suspension and brakes instead.

 

[robzracing]

There are a few modifications worth doing to a standard engine to make it more reliable in a race situation. Mainly aiming at protecting it during high revs.
Megan bottom pulley (keywayed)
ARP rod bolts (common failure on the bottom end)
Super tech valves (and springs)

Nothing is guaranteed of course but these additions will allow you to put more power through the engine as and when you are ready to.


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[Brucefil]

My engine failure was due to a shoddy engine builder.

I think for a race engine tune ability is the most important thing you can do so going for an after market ecu is a must. Of course this has to be matched to a good tuner who can tune the ecu. This will allow you to get the engine to suit the tracks and gear ratios you are running.

This will allow you to set a rev limiter with alarms and fail safes built in to protect your investment.

Once you have made this step start building the head as that's where the power is. You should spend most (2/3) of your engine budget there.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[R3k1355]

You're assuming of course that the race series allows that and doesn't specify a stock ECU or provide a sealed one to keep the competition level.

 

[Brucefil]

I'm also assuming the race series allows for non stock engines or why would anyone bother asking.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[TheCAB]

My engine failure was due to a shoddy engine builder.

I think for a race engine tune ability is the most important thing you can do so going for an after market ecu is a must. Of course this has to be matched to a good tuner who can tune the ecu. This will allow you to get the engine to suit the tracks and gear ratios you are running.

This will allow you to set a rev limiter with alarms and fail safes built in to protect your investment.

Once you have made this step start building the head as that's where the power is. You should spend most (2/3) of your engine budget there.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

The Clio 172 head is a pretty decent bit of kit in standard form with good flow characteristics. Not talking about an 850 cc A series Mini head here, after all it's a dohc 4 valves per cylinder head which helps the Clio deliver such good power output as std. Marginal gains when just doing headwork and waste of money without breathing mods as well.

The big restriction to power output is in the inlet / tb side and just sorting this out with a new manifold and tb's gives significant power increase leaving the head as it is.

If it's just lowering your track times then pound for pound you can't go far wrong with putting a Gripper in, altering cwp ratio and a shorter 5th gear. Driven correctly to make use of the Gripper it will knock seconds off your times - hence faster car without touching engine.

 

[20vKarlos]

So, let’s say I have a standard engine and I want to rebuild it for trackday use only...

What are the upgrades you make to that engine on a standard ECU

 

[bloke]

So, let’s say I have a standard engine and I want to rebuild it for trackday use only...

What are the upgrades you make to that engine on a standard ECU

World is your lobster, depends how much you want to spend. Valves then decent set of cams and high comp Pistons and a bit of headwork will put you past 200bhp on standard inlets.

 

[robzracing]

So, let’s say I have a standard engine and I want to rebuild it for trackday use only...

What are the upgrades you make to that engine on a standard ECU

See my note further up this thread. Everything I suggest makes a standard engine stronger and is a good starting point for power making mods.


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[TheCAB]

For track day use would leave the engine alone in the first instance and sort out tyres and suspension. You need to be able to put down any additional power to make it worthwhile so that's where I would go first.

Track day use engine wise leave block /head alone as if something blows £300 ish gets you a running replacement motor and just rebolt on tuning goodies - despite what some make out they are still a reasonably reliable motor as std even when thrashed.

Change inlet and fit tb's with associated remap / ecu change. Next on list are a set of cams which will work with std pistons and you will have plenty of power for track day fun.

No need to go for expensive internal rebuilds until you are looking for ultimate n/a power outputs then mega bucks quickly overtakes cheap fun.

Alternately get an Engine Dynamics turbo kit just over 2 grand for 230 bhp works with good std motor and job jobbed with less hassle and good VFM..

 

[Brucefil]

The Clio 172 head is a pretty decent bit of kit in standard form with good flow characteristics. Not talking about an 850 cc A series Mini head here, after all it's a dohc 4 valves per cylinder head which helps the Clio deliver such good power output as std. Marginal gains when just doing headwork and waste of money without breathing mods as well.

The big restriction to power output is in the inlet / tb side and just sorting this out with a new manifold and tb's gives significant power increase leaving the head as it is.

If it's just lowering your track times then pound for pound you can't go far wrong with putting a Gripper in, altering cwp ratio and a shorter 5th gear. Driven correctly to make use of the Gripper it will knock seconds off your times - hence faster car without touching engine.

I have tb's on a std motor with 182 exhaust manifold, decat on e85 and additional power = 10 hp.

Agreed it's not just the head but I add a proper worked head, cams, superteck valves and springs additional hp = 》100

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[Brucefil]

So, let’s say I have a standard engine and I want to rebuild it for trackday use only...

What are the upgrades you make to that engine on a standard ECU

Mate I wouldn't bother about the engine on the std ecu. Do a aircon delete (as you poms don't need one anyway) and spend money on adjustable shocks and upgraded spring rates. Go the PMS gear shifter and buy the best R spec tyres you can get. Yokohama A050's are a good start.

The other free upgrade is to strip the car, get some dry ice and get rid of all that rubber sound deadening as there must be about 20kg's of that sticky stuff in there.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[Brucefil]

The Clio 172 head is a pretty decent bit of kit in standard form with good flow characteristics. Not talking about an 850 cc A series Mini head here, after all it's a dohc 4 valves per cylinder head which helps the Clio deliver such good power output as std. Marginal gains when just doing headwork and waste of money without breathing mods as well.

The big restriction to power output is in the inlet / tb side and just sorting this out with a new manifold and tb's gives significant power increase leaving the head as it is.

If it's just lowering your track times then pound for pound you can't go far wrong with putting a Gripper in, altering cwp ratio and a shorter 5th gear. Driven correctly to make use of the Gripper it will knock seconds off your times - hence faster car without touching engine.

+1 for changing the 5th gear if your on a high speed >150mph track. One of the easiest and cheapest mods you can do.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[20vKarlos]

Mate I wouldn't bother about the engine on the std ecu. Do a aircon delete (as you poms don't need one anyway) and spend money on adjustable shocks and upgraded spring rates. Go the PMS gear shifter and buy the best R spec tyres you can get. Yokohama A050's are a good start.

The other free upgrade is to strip the car, get some dry ice and get rid of all that rubber sound deadening as there must be about 20kg's of that sticky stuff in there.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

I’ve got a PMS Shifter that awaits fitting, picking up a PMS Exhaust and decat tomorrow.

I’ve fitted the PMS AC Delete kit
Deleted PAS and gone EPAS
Race heater
fully stripped interior including Dash, just two Clubsports seats and an OMP steering wheel.
Team Dynamic PR1.2’s 15inch with R888’s.
Cooksport springs (will go Bilstein B14 next I think)
Polycarbonate front windows (rears will come along shortly)
PMS Strut brace and top mounts

There’s probably more but I’ve forgotten

Just want to get another engine sorted for when this one potentially goes bang...

 

[Brucefil]

I’ve got a PMS Shifter that awaits fitting, picking up a PMS Exhaust and decat tomorrow.

I’ve fitted the PMS AC Delete kit
Deleted PAS and gone EPAS
Race heater
fully stripped interior including Dash, just two Clubsports seats and an OMP steering wheel.
Team Dynamic PR1.2’s 15inch with R888’s.
Cooksport springs (will go Bilstein B14 next I think)
Polycarbonate front windows (rears will come along shortly)
PMS Strut brace and top mounts

There’s probably more but I’ve forgotten

Just want to get another engine sorted for when this one potentially goes bang...

I'd go suspension next. Go the ktec 750 club suspension. The b14's spring rate is far to low and you don't get a coil over in the rear. With the ktec kit you get great spring rates with a spax one way adjustable damper. I thought it would be too firm but it's very compliant and gives you confidence. Also very easy to adjust for conditions.

I've just got pure to build me a head and agreed while expensive their service has been superb. In motor racing as long as your not dealing with a crook(and there's plenty out there) you pay for what you get.

If you defenitly want to develop your engine I would be looking for either a separate ecu for your engine. There are also some good piggyback ecu options out there. When you change ecu this makes any engine development work much easier and safer and your getting the most for your engine spend.

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[Brucefil]

Just wanted to ask a question of my own.

Looking at changing final drive ratio. What ratio do you guys suggest?

3 x 13 racing. 3 x the luck

 

[Jimmy Brodie]

Thanks for all your replies, I’ve got to the point where I know what dampers, brakes etc I’m running. I was to achieve close to 220/230hp and be totally reliable within reason.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the direction to go would likely be the folowing;
TB’s prob Jenvey
Pistons and Rods
Modified Head
Supertech valves
182 Manifold wrapped
423 Cat Cams

Any views on this?

 

[robzracing]

I run 220 on pretty much that but not that cam and no work to the head.
It’s achievable but you need a very well balanced bottom end to allow the engine to rev safely up to 8k.
I use a 433 cat cam with vvt removed.


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[Jimmy Brodie]

I run 220 on pretty much that but not that cam and no work to the head.
It’s achievable but you need a very well balanced bottom end to allow the engine to rev safely up to 8k.
I use a 433 cat cam with vvt removed.


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[Jimmy Brodie]

I think that’s sensible, assuming it’s reliable. Have you matched the ports, that seems pretty usual.

 

[Jimmy Brodie]

Also Interested to know what sort or weight you have managed to get down to? Just starting down that road. Thanks

 

[robzracing]

I think that’s sensible, assuming it’s reliable. Have you matched the ports, that seems pretty usual.

No port matching to do really with Jenvey ITBs. All I did was mildly polish the combustion chambers. Standard size valves (although some say larger valves can help)

 

[Jimmy Brodie]

Makes sense, are you running an emerald eco as a piggy back on he ITB’s? Thanks again

 

[robzracing]

Also Interested to know what sort or weight you have managed to get down to? Just starting down that road. Thanks

Weight saving is an ongoing mission. Over the past season I have managed to lose about 60kg out of the car by changing to light-weight wheels (OZ Ultralaggeras), fibreglass bonnet, Lexan rear window and lots more metal cut out of the doors, boot and inside the car. Currently it sits at 900kg, but I've got fibreglass doors on the shopping list and the dash and interior heater is also coming out over the winter so I should be well in to the 800s for the new season.

 

[robzracing]

Makes sense, are you running an emerald eco as a piggy back on he ITB’s? Thanks again

Yes, Emerald ECU, but that's not a piggyback, it's a stand alone ECU so you have total control over the map which you really need for the engine to run safely.

 

[Jimmy Brodie]

I think I’m at the same point, all that’s left is the interior heater. I have he GRP boot and pecan rear window, GRP doors and bonnet are next.
The cage goes in over Christmas and the dash will do and the heater completely replaced with an after market one..The wheels make a big difference on the saving and the doors..

 

[robzracing]

I think I’m at the same point, all that’s left is the interior heater. I have he GRP boot and pecan rear window, GRP doors and bonnet are next.
The cage goes in over Christmas and the dash will do and the heater completely replaced with an after market one..The wheels make a big difference on the saving and the doors..

Wheels make a massive difference obviously, not only on kerb weight but such a reduction in the rotating mass completely transformed the car.
Also worth doing a bit of research into the rollcage weights. Obviously you don't want to compromise safety but some cages are incredibly heavy and unless you need an FIA approved one you want to avoid undoing all your hard weightsaving work.

 

[Jimmy Brodie]

Yeha agreed, I did this and went for the Oreca weld on cage through to the turrets. It’s T45 so should weigh Max 35kg but I’m adding additional cross bars behind the driver. Hopefully should eventually be a well sorted car ready for the first race as Snet.