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172 PH1 quicker on The Ring with JC5-130?



J

JE Nord

I'm driving a Clio 172-1 as a Nordschleife Ringtool.

In 5th gear the car doesnt accelerate very much because of the track is uphill at these points.
Now my gearbox needs replacement and i was wondering if a JC5-130 (shorter ratios?) will get me quicker around The Ring because of these shorter gears?

So my questions: Are the gears shorter and is the difference going to be noticeable?

Anyone?
 
sbridgey

sbridgey

ClioSport Club Member
  disco 4, 182, Meglio
Don't the early 172 boxes have the shortest ratios and also still use the speedo drive?
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
So whats the difference in a Cup box to a standard 172? What and where are the codes on them? Im away to get a spare box to rebuild for my clio just now.

What Megane gearbox has the lower final drive?
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
Gaz-m said:
So whats the difference in a Cup box to a standard 172? What and where are the codes on them? Im away to get a spare box to rebuild for my clio just now.

What Megane gearbox has the lower final drive?
Click to expand...

Phase 1 box has speedo drive and higher final drive. Known as jc5 089. The cup and phase 2 172 box has the same ratios and also have speedo drive. The later phase 2's had the box with a speedo drive, but used abs for speedo operation. This is known as the jc5 129. 182's have the jc5 130 that has no hole for the speedo drive but again, same ratios as the 172 129 box.
The codes are found on the casing. It's the underside of them iirc. They're kind of engraved on. Looks like a load of centre-dot marks.

It's not the final drive they're on about, it's the 5th gear ratio. These are available new to buy off Renault. BIGASH has the part numbers I think. Failing that, Toastfrenzy Tony Hunter may have them.
 
Ph1 Tom

Ph1 Tom

ClioSport Club Member
There's an in between 5th gear as well. It's a 31/37 which is longer than the 33/37 but shorter than the standard 5th.
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
NorthloopCup said:
Phase 1 box has speedo drive and higher final drive. Known as jc5 089. The cup and phase 2 172 box has the same ratios and also have speedo drive. The later phase 2's had the box with a speedo drive, but used abs for speedo operation. This is known as the jc5 129. 182's have the jc5 130 that has no hole for the speedo drive but again, same ratios as the 172 129 box.
The codes are found on the casing. It's the underside of them iirc. They're kind of engraved on. Looks like a load of centre-dot marks.

It's not the final drive they're on about, it's the 5th gear ratio. These are available new to buy off Renault. @BIGASH has the part numbers I think. Failing that, @Toastfrenzy @Tony Hunter may have them.
Click to expand...

Superb mate thanks. Ive just checked and the box i got from a mate tonight is a jc5 130 so no use on my Cup. However are the internal gear clusters identical? I presume its only missing the pick up ring on the diff for the speedo and obviously the hole?

If so, ill remove the cluster from the JC5 130, rebuild with new synchros and then its a quicker swap into my box once removed.

What else will i need to change/ buy along with synchro rings?
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
JE Nord said:
Thanxs guys. Think i'm going for the 33/37 setup.

One question: what will it do to top speed? In mph of kmh.
Click to expand...
About 142 iirc. Ideally you want a cup gearbox mate. I have no problems at the nurburgring with mine and I'm in doing 8min 31 laps.
Gaz-m said:
Superb mate thanks. Ive just checked and the box i got from a mate tonight is a jc5 130 so no use on my Cup. However are the internal gear clusters identical? I presume its only missing the pick up ring on the diff for the speedo and obviously the hole?

If so, ill remove the cluster from the JC5 130, rebuild with new synchros and then its a quicker swap into my box once removed.

What else will i need to change/ buy along with synchro rings?
Click to expand...

Yeah gear cluster should be identical. Just remember not to swap the crownwheels and pinions about as they're matched as a pair. You'll need bearings possibly, but I'd inspect the ones that come out. Keep in mind also that the synchros sometimes don't wear - it's the teeth on the gear for the synchro that wear so you'll need to replace the entire gear!! £££££'s.
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
NorthloopCup said:
About 142 iirc. Ideally you want a cup gearbox mate. I have no problems at the nurburgring with mine and I'm in doing 8min 31 laps.


Yeah gear cluster should be identical. Just remember not to swap the crownwheels and pinions about as they're matched as a pair. You'll need bearings possibly, but I'd inspect the ones that come out. Keep in mind also that the synchros sometimes don't wear - it's the teeth on the gear for the synchro that wear so you'll need to replace the entire gear!! £££££'s.
Click to expand...

Thanks. What is it that causes the common crunching though? Just synchros im hoping!

If i change up slower it is ok, and if i rev between down-shifts its ok. Surely that is synchros? So im hoping..

How obvious is wear on them normally? Assuming youve done a bit with them?

Impressive 'Ring time btw!
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
Gaz-m said:
Thanks. What is it that causes the common crunching though? Just synchros im hoping!

If i change up slower it is ok, and if i rev between down-shifts its ok. Surely that is synchros? So im hoping..

How obvious is wear on them normally? Assuming youve done a bit with them?

Impressive 'Ring time btw!
Click to expand...
The common crunching is either of the two items I mentioned mate tbh. You'll definitely be able to see if the teeth are fucked or if it's the synchro that's worn. The teeth should be coffin shaped and pointy at the end. If they're rounded over, they've seen their best. The synchro ring itself has grooves in the inside that the oil sits in and it helps to synchronise the gears together. If these are smooth on the inside, they're knackered.

Thanks. There's a video of the lap on YouTube as well.
 
J

JE Nord

NorthloopCup said:
Phase 1 box has speedo drive and higher final drive. Known as jc5 089. The cup and phase 2 172 box has the same ratios and also have speedo drive. The later phase 2's had the box with a speedo drive, but used abs for speedo operation. This is known as the jc5 129. 182's have the jc5 130 that has no hole for the speedo drive but again, same ratios as the 172 129 box.
Click to expand...

Also thanxs for this info mate. So i need to go for the cup gearbox with 33/37 on fifth gear. I do not run abs. Is it just any 129 i'm looking for?
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
Ive ordered a set of synchros from Renault. Get them tomorrow.

Hopefully its do-able without the special tools!
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
Ok, so got my gearbox out and opened up. As you mentioned Northloopcup, the gears are rounded and damaged. As are the synchro hubs.

I have a spare box and its no better. Nightmare.

I really need 2nd, 3rd, 4th and both synchro hubs. Surely cost s fortune.

As you can see in pic, the lower gear (1st) looks a lot better condition than the upper (2nd) gear!

A211DAB2-330B-4A5F-8F1C-742F9EFD7D18_zpstzase8t5.jpg
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
Gaz-m said:
Ok, so got my gearbox out and opened up. As you mentioned Northloopcup, the gears are rounded and damaged. As are the synchro hubs.

I have a spare box and its no better. Nightmare.

I really need 2nd, 3rd, 4th and both synchro hubs. Surely cost s fortune.

As you can see in pic, the lower gear (1st) looks a lot better condition than the upper (2nd) gear!

A211DAB2-330B-4A5F-8F1C-742F9EFD7D18_zpstzase8t5.jpg
Click to expand...
Oh dear mate, that's going to be expensive to buy all the parts from Renault!! I got quoted about £400 and that wasn't including bearings or seals!! It's hard to tell what condition they're in from that picture mate as they don't look at all bad. The ones I've seen have been nearly flat across the part that should be pointy.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
It's only the diff ratio that changes for ph1 and the ph2, all the gears are the same.

You could keep your current setup and then just swap fifth. Don't even need the box out the car to do that. It's about 7 percent lower gearing.
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
So phoned Renault this morning, for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, synchro hubs and synchro rings which is all needed to fully repair it- £600! Parts only and thats with 10% trade discount. Also some parts in France so up to 10 days delivery.

So my idea is, find a JC5 from a Scenic or the like and hope its had an easy life and all good condition gears as not been getting revved to 7500rpm, and use the gearset from that.

Am i right in thinking all JC5s have same gear ratios 1-4th gear? So any JC5 will be the same. What do they all come in???

Heres better pictures of gears/ hubs. Not sure how bad this actually is, but as they synchros are actually all fine- it must be this damage causing the problem!?

079C2EA7-EF5C-41A2-B153-15E228195F54_zpsrr8aynbc.jpg


4BA872C4-C1BF-4919-B16F-1EB1FF11029D_zps0fux0uqp.jpg
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
No they dont all have the same ratios, in fact its only the models fitted to the sport that have the 11/34 first gear for example.

I will dig out the chart I have.
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
Cheers Chip. That confuses it somewhat.

I remembered the Renault gearbox manual had all the gear ratios etc in it so looked at that.

The JC5 029 which i have has gearset G, so looked at others in the charts that have gearset G as id obviously be able to swap them straight over.

That came back as 028, 029, 037, 038, 039, 040, 047, 048. For some reason 030 isnt listed on it.

Completely different from what you have! Where did you source that?

EDIT: Yours show the wrong codes, theyre mostly starting with 1 instead of 0..
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
The only ones I can personally confirm off that chart are the 89/129/130 which I know are correct, cant comment on the others.
Its just a chart I found online when I was looking years ago.
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
Gaz-m said:
So phoned Renault this morning, for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, synchro hubs and synchro rings which is all needed to fully repair it- £600! Parts only and thats with 10% trade discount. Also some parts in France so up to 10 days delivery.

So my idea is, find a JC5 from a Scenic or the like and hope its had an easy life and all good condition gears as not been getting revved to 7500rpm, and use the gearset from that.

Am i right in thinking all JC5s have same gear ratios 1-4th gear? So any JC5 will be the same. What do they all come in???

Heres better pictures of gears/ hubs. Not sure how bad this actually is, but as they synchros are actually all fine- it must be this damage causing the problem!?

079C2EA7-EF5C-41A2-B153-15E228195F54_zpsrr8aynbc.jpg


4BA872C4-C1BF-4919-B16F-1EB1FF11029D_zps0fux0uqp.jpg
Click to expand...
Yeah that's your problem right there!
 
Gaz-m

Gaz-m

  172 Cup (Track)
Since checked my gearbox code and its a Ph1 089, so its longer ratio and older style input shaft bearings. So ive bought a proper Cup 129 gearbox that is meant to be ok.

Fingers crossed!
 
STEVE.M

STEVE.M

  PH2 172
NorthloopCup said:
Phase 1 box has speedo drive and higher final drive. Known as jc5 089. The cup and phase 2 172 box has the same ratios and also have speedo drive. The later phase 2's had the box with a speedo drive, but used abs for speedo operation. This is known as the jc5 129. 182's have the jc5 130 that has no hole for the speedo drive but again, same ratios as the 172 129 box.
The codes are found on the casing. It's the underside of them iirc. They're kind of engraved on. Looks like a load of centre-dot marks.
Click to expand...

Sorry to bump this.
It`s not a ratio question,but are there any differences between 089,129 & 130 that have any bearing on drive shaft length?
 
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