172 power differences ........

[Captain Slarty]

Well, I thought I would stat a new thread for this one.

There is always differences in actual output of high spec engines, however, what we saw today, on a roller that I do trust, was a variation of over 10%.. that is A LOT, and poses a question re quality control surely ?. However, in the light of modern manufacturing techniques and robot build, it is unlikey to be a production isuue.


One of the things we are looking into is the cam phasing device, and IF it is operating on all the cars. Trouble is, only test I can see at the mo is on the rollers again, with phasing unplugged v plugged..

any other thoughts or comments. ?

Joe.

 

[BenR]

agree!

shoulnt we mail a copy of all teh 172 printouts to teh Renault quality dept or summat!??

see what they have to say.

what did yours get, and is running in methods relative?

 

[Captain Slarty]

Didnt put mine on today as the last time it went Bez due to the half a traction control.. .. Reno are sposed to be blowing the ecu next week.

Running in could have a lot to do with it due to the fact that bloody synthetic oils are sheeeeeeeeeeet for running in.

Obviously petrol is a factor, octane rating. If differing octane rates were used, I doubt they were, but if they were, the power output can vary, probably not too noticable on the road, but defo on the rollers.

Joe.

 

[Tim-Grove]

How come mine put out a crap figer like 121bhp@wheels at Powerstation and you guys were getting between 135 and 150 at the wheels today, me thinks my 172 was f***ed from day1.

Tim

 

[rt172]

Joe - how about differences in how they were run in? I was kind to mine for 600 miles. Paddy thrashed his from day 1. His Contis more knackered than mine were by 6500 miles! Maybe I should abuse her more....?

Rhys

 

[paddymph]

What can I say other than.... I AM THE DADDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Truth is Im a stealth F1 driver, Joe thinks I drive round at 20mph everywhere......
Anyway, running in could be an issue, I hardly warmed my car up today so airbox would have been quite cool, coming home it "felt" quicker with Optimax???
Youd be lucky to see such big a difference with Induction, exhaust and chip so this is really baffling?? Ive now done 6300 miles, remember also that I did the 0-100 in 17.4 which also was quickest. Think with it being the Demo 172 they (Reno) could have tweaked it??
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm indeeedy, i is happy

Paddy

 

[paddymph]

"Paddy has changed his Profile..."

end of message
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[m@thew]

well I didnt get to run my car but it sounded like 200bhp@the wheels to me

 

[Captain Slarty]

Ok, heres what I suggest we do.. if anyones interested

Brun m8. ??

How do you fancy organising the following little test ?

I think we may get the following interested parties..

RE Bury
pGti mag
Nick Hill
Me
and, perhaps reno themselves...

We take pGtis 172, and also Paddys (Highest ad lowest power figures)

Lets use my std as a control...

Spend a few hours on the rollers at RE (Who should heavily discount the prices cos..... pGti will be there to .. a, help diagnose this mystery), and b, to assist in advertising the RE business..

I will put up 1/4 cost of the full session.. Maybe NH will put up another ??.. pGti 1/4 and RE absorbs the other 1/4.

Spec, no further mods....

All running on optimax for 98 ron to standardise.

Tests......

Compression test
Tyre pressures
Oil levels
?? other ideas ?? ??


then,

all cars run up on the rollers.

Figures taken and recorded.

Figure with Phase device (VVT) plugged in)
Figure with VVT Unplugged

2nd run in rotation... noted..

Swap ecus around all cars and rerun.

Swap throttle bodies and rerun (Mk2 to Mk2 only )

Any other suggestions or comments. ?

Joe.

 

[BenR]

sounds like a plan Batman!

i ragged mine from day one! seriously...up to 7krpm all the time, and not a fault yet....bar a leaky rocker cover gasket.

 

[James Palmer]

thrash them from new, but make sure to change the oil after say, 1500 miles, to get all the small bits out. It is impossible to completly clear all the galleries of debris from casting. You are indeed right, it is not good running in on synthetic oil, its whole principle is to reduce wear, thats why it costs 11 quid a litre opposed to 1.50 for netto value 15w50

 

[teady172]

Cap/anyone what kind of transmission loss do you expect on a 172?

At 152 @ the wheels that would be around 180 at the fly, would it not??

 

[BRUN]

yea somethin is definitely goin wrong with 172s

Nick Kershaws only hit somethin like 135 at the wheels an his is chipped too

nice to see Nick Hill up here today an a nice result at 145 was it ?

 

[rt172]

Mind if I bring mine, as Im intending to go back anyway to try again with the air box pipe re-connected. Ive connected it again, but Ive just put full tank of optimax in so I cant tell the difference yet.

Rhys

 

[Simon172]

I think mine may also be a fast 172. I went for a top speed special the other day on a stretch of "runway" that i regularly test it and without both of the cold air pipes attached i managed 145 on the clock (ive only ever been able to creep upto 142 previously with air pipes connected) It may have something to do with my new tyres and the group N ecu I have.

My car belonged to the sales manager of a renault garage (probably ragged and used as a demo etc) but seems to be a quickun. This evening I toasted my friend in his VTS quite badly and I was 4-up, he was 2-up.

My car also keeps up with cars it shouldnt keep up with on paper....for example on a straight drag i kept with a Fiat Coupe Turbo 20V, he managed to get about a cars length ahead (so that my bonnet was next to his fuel filler cap/boot).

Id be interested in getting her rollered, but i dont live anywhere near you guys....

Ive got a spare standard Mk.1 172 ECU if anyone is interested?

 

[Captain Slarty]

Simon, I would be very interested in the ecu to enable reading the eprom for possible future chip development.

Joe.

 

[RPM]

We had a Clio 172 meet here in Sweden yesterday, (pictures at www.cliosport.nu soon). We had 8 cars at the meet!! A good figure. On the way home me and the guy running cliosport.nu compared our cars on the freeway and i pulled away a fair bit. We accelerated from 55mph in 3rd and 65 in fourth and i got away 3-4 car lengths in both tests. He has a BMC CDA box and a 2.5" cat back exhaust and 17" wheels. My car is standard exept BMC panel filter in OEM box. It was a demo car before i got it and ragged from the start. Have the point out that the difference was like 20-30 Bhp.

Lars

 

[2 live]

sorry guys ...... but i wouldnt be happy at all with a car thats chipped filtered and zorst modded.......and still pulling about what it should be standard. but maybe thats just me(which i know it isnt lol)
as for nick hill..... yeah he did come, but it was a foto shoot for a mag(free advertising) and it was in a customers car to put it on the rollers, something he said he wouldnt do to his OWN car, i dont know if he had permission from the owner of the car in question , but i wouldnt be happy if i saw my car in a mag over 100 miles away from where it shouldve been, and to top it all off it wasnt pulling all that good a result for mods done
rant over hehe
jon

 

[MarkB]

Bloody hell 2live, take it easy!!

You make Nick sound like some really dodgy, not to be trusted cowboy.

I would suggest you dont jump to any conclusions and find out what is actually happening before making borderline slanderous comments....

If you had even bothered to speak to Nick you would have found out that the car belongs to Arjun (ak_uk) from these here forums, and he ASKED Nick to run it on the RR to see what the figures were as he is doing some work on his induction and chip, and Nick spoke to Arjun on the phone straight after it had run.

I would suggest you retract your comments, as if I was Nick and read your post (he is a member of the forums) I would be EXTREMELY unimpressed.

rant over hehe

 

[BRUN]

yea, Nick Hill did NOT take a customers car to a RR without permission, he called him on Friday an it was all sorted out

also, when i went to get Nick, he followed all the speed limits exactly, he DID look after the car

 

[rt172]

He did have permission. Think it is well off to slate Nick Hill like that. Everyone who spoke to him found him a really nice and knowledgable bloke.

He came to test the mods on the car out. He told me that he wouldnt release the package until he was ready for it.

 

[BRUN]

Nick Hill is one of the nicest blokes you could ever meet, he will always have a chat with you about your car or mods or anythin at all really

anywayz i dont think we should get this off track as Joe really has made a valid point about some further investigation, the 172s really are givin out crazy figures

 

[rt172]

Joe - you didnt reply when I posted this earlier, so again(!)...

Any objections to me coming along to your RR experiment. Ive re-attached the cold air feed which is possibly why I was losing power. Its the only difference between mine and Paddys car (apart from 16bhp, of course ). Im keen to go back as soon as possible to test it again.

Rhys

 

[Slugger]

What mods did the 172s have? Apart from the one that got 129bhp the power differences semm to go with the mileage. i.e lower miles=lower power figure....

Taken from the other post..

6k 133bhp
9k 136bhp
12k 142bhp
12k 145bhp
20k 151bhp
?? 152bhp

Wayne

 

[Matbrown]

Christ Wayne,

Your car must have been on about 200bhp @ the wheels!!!

Mat.

 

[paddymph]

Slugger, my cars done 6300, its intersting to hear 2 other 172s owned by Reno ie Demo cars are also known as flyers???
Rhys, RR it again mate for sure.
Weird this aint it?

Paddy

 

[BRUN]

personally i think they need a proper good thrashin to get some power out of em, might be the same with all clios, yet because the 16vs an Willys are older, they have obviously had there thrashin

mine seemed faster after the run, anyone else experienced this

 

[desmondo]

Wayne mine was the 142bhp one with 12k - actually 146bhp on the print out. No mods.

 

[rt172]

BRUN - mine feels looser, as it does every time it is thrashed. Feels really good with that air hose re-connected, though. Im quite desperate to re-run...

Rhys

 

[paddymph]

.......you sound it mate

Paddy

 

[BRUN]

go down again mate, id come with ya if im free

 

[2 live]

easy geezers lol
i aint sl*ggin off nick hill as like i said i didnt know if he had permission or not.. so if the customer asked him then fairy nuff.
as for the outputs that wasnt pointed at any one car either.. remember there were quite a few 172s there that had same mods and pulled about same/ lower results than u would expect from a boggo one
i just cant understand where u get the impression that i was slating anyone .... im just giving my (sometimes unwanted lol) opinion of what i witnessed....... and if iv offended anyone then sorry but im entitled to my opinion
cheers
jon

 

[Captain Slarty]

Back on topic hopefully now

yes, RT, the more the merrier, but it needs to be a controlled experiment.

Paddy, Brun, RT ??.. if you are up for it, so am I..

Brun, if so, can you get your contact at PGti and see if he is interested ?. His car would be useful too.

As said before, there has to be a reason for the vast differences.

We need to be able to link the key transponder to the appropriate ecu though, I will take a look at that next week.

Joe

 

[willy148]

slugger,there was a 6k 172 standard i think,that pulled 151 me thinks,paddy was this urs?

as for nick hill,i would like to see this 1.6 8v 1.4rt engine conv clio will beater upto 84 mph on the road,how many of u guys know where 84 mph is on ur speedo to quote it in a race,love to see the 0-60 on those cars,IF ITS TRUE WHICH I DOUBT but i will hold my hands up at any proof,1.6 8v/2.0 16v willy losin until 84 (?) mph,eh????????

 

[ak_uk]

2live

Actually, since I know for sure , he asked *me* if I wanted to put it on the rollers and obviously I said yes or it wouldnt have been there. I will be putting it on the rollers at Power Engineering tomorrow morning as this is where the car has been for all its previous runs.

Bear in mind that the previous ATW figure was 122 at PE, therefore I reckon that 145 is an interesting result.

Opinions are fine, misrepresenting facts is careless at the very least.

 

[BRUN]

Ged......Nick is probably going off him an Dazz F racin around the country roads

ive spoke to him before about it and he told me that up to about 80-90 Dazz in his Willy couldnt leave him

i dunno about races etc, all i know is what ive been told, and Nick Hill doesnt bull sh*t !

 

[Slugger]

Ok so the one I had down as 152bhp is the 6k one yeah. So apart from that one and the 129bhp one what I said still looks right. What about.....who ragged theirs from new?

 

[BRUN]

Joe, yea i will get in touch with Luke again, sadly when i got home on Sat night my comp had died, but its all back now, but i lost EVERYTHING as it was my RAID array that died

im in the process of gettin his email again, i have his number so i can always text him

would it be possible for you to speak to R.E about it, as you seem to know Ken fairly well, or at least better than me

 

[2 live]

ak mate .......whos mis representing facts??????????
i know wot i and evryone else there witnessed with our own eyes
there is too much dif between the 172s for anyone to say IV TUNED THIS TO AN EXTRA XXX BHP
how do you know the tuning has done that or the extra mileage? cos most of em seem to put more out after a few miles more............ just a few ppls opinions not just mine mate so where u get the misrepresentation from??????
me or someone else?
i think the figures speak for themselves.
cheers
jon
btw y doesnt nick use his own rollers to show what his works done? like a before and after run or does he already do that???

 

[BenR]

beacsue there new and i dont think they are fully setup yet.