200bhp Petrol vs 200bhp Diesel

[Russ_16v]

if it helps,i work for vw and lately iv been out in 2 cars:

the 1.4 supercharged and turbo'd golf gt with 170 ps

and

the 2.0 tdi gt with 170 ps


now speed wise the tdi makes its power faster,put ur foot down and bang the power is there,the petrol is good,but even on feathering the throttle there is a small split sec before it goes.

the petrol pulls better at the top end of the revs,and really goes well from 5k-7k

the tdi pulls good to 4.5k then runs out of puff,so into next gear and it takes off again

both were 6 speed manuals

both iv driven back to back on more than one accasion

and my answer on performance is.....





there exactly the same

either from standing start,through the gears or from rolling,the tdi pulls a lil then the petrol gains it bk in the higher revs,being timed from point to point and speed runs,they both give the same speed and the same times


id prefere the tdi myself,as i find it easier to drive than the petrol,but each to there own



interestingly tho,the golf petrol has 170 ps with around 170 lbs ft torque


the tdi has 170ps but 268 lbs ft torque...and they the same performance......


hope that helps a bit

 

[Dave H]

Diesel power is moving on fast.Back in the day the Clio 16v was way slower than a 205 Turbo diesel 50-70.

I know i've no chance pulling away from a Golf TDi or Focus TDi on the m-way at anything over 50 mph in fifth gear

 

[kpowell911]

instead of comparing BHP, Why not consider price?

 

[edde]

How does the BMW diesel win? You seem to be suggesting that 400Nm at 2000rpm is better than 280Nm at 5000rpm, when it clearly isn't.

Stick both of those engines in identical cars and the VW engined one is faster.

I used the nurbers as percentages not as raw figures hence why i said the diesel makes higher adverage power from a set rpm to double that rpm ie 2 to 4 k in a diesel and 3 to 6k or whatever in the petrol.

There few 200hp diesels to use particualy ones I can easly find on the net hence I just used a diesel which i could find and prove which could be used.

Just checked though the BMW is 200hp as 150KW is 200hp (or there abouts)

Stick both those engines in a car and make the gearbing correct the diesel will be quicker in gear ok you might have to chnage up once more to 60 etc but it will be quicker in gears since adverage power on track will be higher.

instead of comparing BHP, Why not consider price?

because we'd have to also consider milage, depreciation, lease costs etc. cos to run etc.

 

[TomTom]

Firstly your comparing petrol BHP to diesel BHP which are totally different, as said earlier in the thread it'd probably be more fair to compare say a 180bhp Derv to a 200bhp Petrol.

bhp is bhp regardless of the power source! It could be a 200bhp from Mr fusion and it would make no difference.

Silly me. I was talking real world figures, not parkers guide figures.

Okay then to make it a bit easier for you to understand...

The horse on the left is one of the 200 in the Diesel car, the horse on the right is one of the ones thats in the 200 hp Petrol car. But both cars are still 200 bhp.

So what your saying is that if they made an identical Clio sport, with a 2.0 Diesel engine with 182bhp, it'd be shown up by a 182bhp 2.0 Petrol?? Turbo makes up the bhp so doesn't count.

 

[skinner]

Edde, I still don't understand your arguement.

VW revs to 6800
BMW revs to 4800
If you were to gear them so that they both achieved the same speed at max rpm, the VW gearing would be lower.
6800/4800=1.417 So the torque of the VW needs to be multiplied by this.

RPM VW BMW
1000 255 180
2000 397 400
3000 397 360
4000 397 340
5000 397 280
6000 340 x
6800 283 x

So the VW engine is better almost everywhere,and just 1% down at 2K
OK, you could compare with a more powerful Diesel, but the same applies to the petrol.

TomTom, The horse on the right will be better once it's run in, the one on the left looks knackered.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Bored with this thread now, I can only type the same s**t over and over so many times.

Why don't the know it alls of the forum who seem to think maths will win an arguement go and try these cars back to back??

I wouldn't buy a diesel for sound OR economy, the MPG is just a bonus that makes diesel a worth while purchase over a turbo petrol.

 

[edde]

Edde, I still don't understand your arguement.

VW revs to 6800
BMW revs to 4800
If you were to gear them so that they both achieved the same speed at max rpm, the VW gearing would be lower.
6800/4800=1.417 So the torque of the VW needs to be multiplied by this.

RPM VW BMW
1000 255 180
2000 397 400
3000 397 360
4000 397 340
5000 397 280
6000 340 x
6800 283 x

So the VW engine is better almost everywhere,and just 1% down at 2K
OK, you could compare with a more powerful Diesel, but the same applies to the petrol.

Its should be 1.4 thought sicne 4.4x 1.4 is 6.16l which is just above when the golf loosing power? Doesn't matter realy but I like simplier numbers

Anyway I found some more real number to use an independant dyno ie superchip

http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/vw2lfsiturbo.pdf 2.0 197HP Golf engine

http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/530d193bhp.pdf 3.0 BMW TD engine

So we'll work on the BMW hp of output and times the Golf by 1.4 thats right isn't it?
BMW Golf
1k 40 40
2k 140 105
3k 165 155
4k 185 196
4.4k 188 196

So the diesel is making a few Hp short of what it should and the gold making spot on what it should but realy doens't that show the diesel has more low down power? Near enough 40% at 2k (2.8k foir the golf)

Adverage HP from 2k to 4.4k on the diesel is (140+188)/2 = 164hp
Form the Golf its (105+196)/2 = 150.5

And that with a diesel that 4hp down on what it should be and 11hp down on what the golf makes officialy and 7hp down on what the golf made.

OK its only small differences but 7hp is 3.5% or so so infact the diesel should be times by 1.03 to be equal top end realy (since we want to compare exact HP
So the figures for a 196hp golf and 196 hp BMW (ie BMW x1.03 to make them equal)
BMW Golf
1k 41 40
2k 145 105
3k 177 155
4k 191 196
4.4k 194 196

 

[TomTom]

TomTom, The horse on the right will be better once it's run in, the one on the left looks knackered.

Meeeeeooowwww. Yeah the one on the rights a Cup.

 

[skinner]

Edde, I just don't like the average hp you are calculating.
I think you need to work out the wheel torque, or torque after the gearbox to compare the two.

 

[edde]

Edde, I just don't like the average hp you are calculating.
I think you need to work out the wheel torque, or torque after the gearbox to compare the two.

Difficult to know gearbox losses and torque at the wheel but assuming the same looses for both boxes it woulnd't matter lets work on the figures we have.

The VW torque is the torque at that rpm only compaired to the BMW its 1.4 times higer so 30NM on the BMW at 2k if the VW doens't make more than 30 NM at (1.4 times 2k) ie 2.4k then its less powerful.

Hp is the ones you want to compaire as my earlier figures show but anyway

Comparing torque with a 1.4 times higher rpm for the Golf and an extra 3.5% since its down anyway on peak power (not fair compairing a 189hp diesel with a 197hp petrol is it?)

BMW Golf
1k 259 165
2k 501 270
3k 393 260
4k 326 240
4.4k 295 230

 

[edde]

Your argument seems to suggest that torque at the wheel on the petrol will be 1.4 times it won't be.

Get both cars on RR and both to 50mph the diesel at 4.4k and the petrol to do 6k (we have to gear them so they both do this) the'll be making the same torque at the wheels won't they? If the petrol were making more torque then err it would be more powerful which it won't be after all the wheels are tuning at the same speed.

 

[skinner]

Your argument seems to suggest that torque at the wheel on the petrol will be 1.4 times it won't be.

Get both cars on RR and both to 50mph the diesel at 4.4k and the petrol to do 6k (we have to gear them so they both do this) the'll be making the same torque at the wheels won't they? If the petrol were making more torque then err it would be more powerful which it won't be after all the wheels are tuning at the same speed.

Exactly right. What I was saying with the 1.4 was that the petrol gear ratio is 1.4 lower than the diesel.

Taking your example of 50mph the diesel at 4.4k and the petrol at 6k, they are making the same power at the same speed, and therefore the same wheel torque. Engine torque of the BMW is higher, as can be seen from the graphs.

I'm not arguing that the 3.0 BMW you have picked now is going to be slower that the 2.0 golf, the BM will clearly be quicker in gear until the top end.

You obviously cannot multiply hp with a gearbox, so you need to work with the torque figures. What you really need is a speed vs g force, or speed vs wheel torque graph, then it is easy to see what is "best".

It is hard to draw conclusions from looking at a couple of graphs from completely different engines, so you need to match them up, hence the 1.4 from the first example.

As for the 200bhp diesel vs petrol arguement as a whole, it is hopeless as you just have to go up in displacement to win! I'll go for a 4.0l disco, thats around 200bhp? Or maybe some American dinosaur. Now to find a power curve...

 

[Markpw]

only tdi i could compare to my cup would be an audi A3 2.0 tdi. similar bhp but alot more torque. Felt quicker than my cup but only in short burts due to the power delivery and torque. over 80mph mine felt faster.
Travelling at the same speed eg. 50mph and both in the right gear i would say the audi would edge ahead.
Personally i think the A3 is a great car but just hasnt got the grin factor of my cup !

 

[Sarah]

i went from a gt tdi 130 golf to the 172 .................yes the golf was fast but it was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring to drive sothe 172 is way better and if you rev high in it you will get the same acceraltion out of the 172 as you cud with the 'turbo' diesel golf............and like someone else said the turbo makes the car fast not the diesel so let compare a turbo'd petrol engine.............

 

[Michael172]

if it helps,i work for vw and lately iv been out in 2 cars:

the 1.4 supercharged and turbo'd golf gt with 170 ps

and

the 2.0 tdi gt with 170 ps


now speed wise the tdi makes its power faster,put ur foot down and bang the power is there,the petrol is good,but even on feathering the throttle there is a small split sec before it goes.

the petrol pulls better at the top end of the revs,and really goes well from 5k-7k

the tdi pulls good to 4.5k then runs out of puff,so into next gear and it takes off again

both were 6 speed manuals

both iv driven back to back on more than one accasion

and my answer on performance is.....





there exactly the same

either from standing start,through the gears or from rolling,the tdi pulls a lil then the petrol gains it bk in the higher revs,being timed from point to point and speed runs,they both give the same speed and the same times


id prefere the tdi myself,as i find it easier to drive than the petrol,but each to there own



interestingly tho,the golf petrol has 170 ps with around 170 lbs ft torque


the tdi has 170ps but 268 lbs ft torque...and they the same performance......


hope that helps a bit

exactly the answer i coulve asked for. was interested to know.

Just there are some people who are like omg but its not oing to be the same due to engine weight and size blah blah.

In theory. i was interested thats all. I wouldnt buy a diesel due to the noise.

Thaks bud big help that.

 

[Dave H]

Was the point of this thread to sort out what was a better performer.....diesel or petrol? Each to their own l say.My dads Audi 2.0 TDi is way better for the m-way than my Cup....but would l swap? NO ! My Cup is so much fun on the road and as good as the Audi is its bigger and heavier so boring to drive.
Torque/in-gear times......? Remember the Top Gear test that had a Stilo pull away from an Evo FQ400? Which would you rather have?

TDi good
Petrol good

 

[Michael172]

Was the point of this thread to sort out what was a better performer.....diesel or petrol? Each to their own l say.My dads Audi 2.0 TDi is way better for the m-way than my Cup....but would l swap? NO ! My Cup is so much fun on the road and as good as the Audi is its bigger and heavier so boring to drive.
Torque/in-gear times......? Remember the Top Gear test that had a Stilo pull away from an Evo FQ400? Which would you rather have?

TDi good
Petrol good

Yes. EXACTLY !

IN THEORY - if you were to take two identical cars, weight wise and even the wngine allthough imo the pic of the donkeys described it very well, and then put them back to back. which would win.

The two cars would be identical. Except for one little difference. The fuel which was beign used. One car was a petrol running at 200bhp and the other was a diesel running at 200bhp.

So yeah basically which one would win. I wasnt expecting the retarded answers about how the diesel would have to be a 2L and the petrol would have to be a 1.4 etc etc because we all know diesel is a less powerfull fuel.


Its all theory. i dont give a flying f**k if its not possible, i really dont and i wish i could stab those of us on here feel they need to argue about this.

 

[Russ_16v]

exactly the answer i coulve asked for. was interested to know.

Just there are some people who are like omg but its not oing to be the same due to engine weight and size blah blah.

In theory. i was interested thats all. I wouldnt buy a diesel due to the noise.

Thaks bud big help that.

no probs mate

 

[IvanDrago]

Just thought I'd tell you about an experience I had recently regarding this.

I have a Honda Civic VTI which puts out peak power of 158bhp. It's done 40,000 miles and has full service history. The point I'm making here is that the car has been well looked after so should still be making around 158bhp.

The other day, I had a 'play' with a Vectra CDTI - 145bhp (I think) and is a much heavier car than my Civic. I was absolutely thrapping the nuts off my Civic and couldn't even close him down. Obviously, I don't know whether this car was standard but makes you think doesn't it?

 

[coatesy]

well ive beat an a3 2.0tdi from 30mph i'd say once clio hits 5k revs the diesel changes gear while uve got them extra 2k revs to blow him away
unless he gets u with his black smoke trick lol a fabia vrs dun that to me other day

 

[edde]

The other day, I had a 'play' with a Vectra CDTI - 145bhp (I think) and is a much heavier car than my Civic. I was absolutely thrapping the nuts off my Civic and couldn't even close him down. Obviously, I don't know whether this car was standard but makes you think doesn't it?

Very easy to tune the TDi'd though could have been running a fair bit more power than stock.

well ive beat an a3 2.0tdi from 30mph i'd say once clio hits 5k revs the diesel changes gear while uve got them extra 2k revs to blow him away
unless he gets u with his black smoke trick lol a fabia vrs dun that to me other day

Err think about it you have 169hp and way less wight than the A3 of course you'll be quicker its nothing to do with revs. he kept with you as he had the same power as you tried to climb the rev range to get into the power abdn whereas he was already there.

Taking your example of 50mph the diesel at 4.4k and the petrol at 6k, they are making the same power at the same speed, and therefore the same wheel torque. Engine torque of the BMW is higher, as can be seen from the graphs.

I'm not arguing that the 3.0 BMW you have picked now is going to be slower that the 2.0 golf, the BM will clearly be quicker in gear until the top end.

You obviously cannot multiply hp with a gearbox, so you need to work with the torque figures. What you really need is a speed vs g force, or speed vs wheel torque graph, then it is easy to see what is "best".

As for the 200bhp diesel vs petrol arguement as a whole, it is hopeless as you just have to go up in displacement to win!

Err try find 200hp 2.0 TDI and petrol (you'll want a turbo since your moanaing its unfair) try and find on the engines.

If displacment is the be all and end all why do we have 1000hp skylines and stuff who only have 3.6 liters at best. And F1 cars making close on 1000hp on 3 liter.

You cannot obviously need to use a calculater so I'll try explaian

We'll have 2.0 liter engine one TDI one turbo petrol

Both doing 50mph both doing there peak power if they stick there foto down both will accelerate for the micro second at the same speedn since they both have the same hp its not under question.

Leave both cars in the same gear and slow down to 25mph then get them both to put ther foot down the diesel will pull away as at 2k it making more power (check the power curves) than the petrol at 3k (torque not the issue since that a cross representaton of rpm. Its HP which realy moves you bu put a 500hp viper engine in a truck vs a 500hp diesel and see which one moves the trailer. the diesel has loads more hp at low revs its not under question jsut look at the graphs and since it makes more power at low revs its adverage power is higher.

PS 200hp is 200hp so top end ther'll both be the SAME aso long as the gearing supports it (BM might be better as it lower drag but that irrelivent)

 

[Michael172]

f**k sake.


Get a life.


It was in theory and i could have asked which was the better fuel, obviously petrol for power, but in theory the cars are the same and produce the same power, which would win on a straight ?

 

[edde]

Get a life.

It was in theory and i could have asked which was the better fuel, obviously petrol for power, but in theory the cars are the same and produce the same power, which would win on a straight ?

Im bored though.

Anyway why is petrol for power better? Last time I checked diesel had more power per lb in theory.

If both are exactly the same ie mapped so there the same eer well neither will win.

 

[TomTom]

f**k sake.

Haha Michael its back to haunt you


Whats 3 litre TDI A4s do they do? - one with twin exhausts saw one giving a Focus ST a lot of hassle on the A45 this morning

 

[Lagerlout]

diesel schmiesel.

Can you get 200 bhp out of a 2.0 NA diesel? Can you f**k.

Petrol FTW. Turbos are for gays.

 

[Michael172]

diesel schmiesel.

Can you get 200 bhp out of a 2.0 NA diesel? Can you f**k.

Petrol FTW. Turbos are for gays.

you sir, are an arse hole.

THIS IS IN THEORY YOU PLEBS I DONT GIVE A s**t IF IT CANT BE DONE............


:evil:

 

[Russ_16v]

ok guys lets just let things lie now,remember its only theory talking


its all in the love baby

 

[TomTom]

diesel schmiesel.

Can you get 200 bhp out of a 2.0 NA diesel? Can you f**k.

Petrol FTW. Turbos are for gays.

Yeah we get a turbo, you get an extra cam and an extra 8 valves!!

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

diesel schmiesel.

Can you get 200 bhp out of a 2.0 NA diesel? Can you f**k.

Petrol FTW. Turbos are for gays.

Yeah we get a turbo, you get an extra cam and an extra 8 valves!!

Clio DCI is DOHC I thought....

Anyway... Looks like my time machine is working. Michael172, how about a cup of STFU, just because you asked the question doesn't suddenly give you the overlord power of commanding everyone's attention.

The morons entering these topics with "diesels are turbo because they're s**t NA"... Well done, no one is trying to sell you a diesel. No one even wants to talk to you!

If you want a little petrol engine in which you need to rev the gran's titties to make it move, that's great. Horses for courses and all that.

Anyway, it's Pride in Brighton this weekend, so I've got to go get ready... Now where did I put that skirt...

 

[edde]

Can you get 200 bhp out of a 2.0 NA diesel? Can you f**k.

Yes you can so check before you post.

"Turbo for gays" I'm sure a few owners might disagree plus race and rally drivers etc.

Last time I checked WRC owners used turbos and the Groub B drivers used them so how gay are they again?

 

[edde]

Clio DCI is DOHC I thought.

Nope single cam.

The 172 need twin cam so they ca use there VVT to despiratly get some mid range power back.

 

[TomTom]

Clio DCI is DOHC I thought....

Nah sadly not, Renault 2.0, 2.2 etc etc are nowadays.

The 172 need twin cam so they ca use there VVT to despiratly get some mid range power back.

Edde keep it clean mate - Thats personal :quiet:


2 Words. Le Mans.

Thanks again.

 

[philis]

A 200 bhp turbo diesel vs a 200bhp turbo petrol engine would be a fairer comparisson. turbos and common rail injection are giving diesels a good head start in performance because of torque at low rpm. petrol engines however can achieve similar performace without the need for turbos.
not an entirely fair test imho

 

[edde]

A 200 bhp turbo diesel vs a 200bhp turbo petrol engine would be a fairer comparisson. turbos and common rail injection are giving diesels a good head start in performance because of torque at low rpm. petrol engines however can achieve similar performace without the need for turbos.
not an entirely fair test imho

We have been using turbo petrols though as comparison though for ages of theis discussion.

Diesel naturally makes more power at low rpm its not the common rail or turbo or anything "new" which does that.

Petrol can yes 200hp N/A 2.0 petrols can be done ie Honda but so can diesels its just no one bothers making them. Its easier tyo just stick a turbo on.

I don't see how compairing a new FSI turbo GTI Golf engine isn't a fair engine its more modern than the diesel we picked its the new FSI technology etc what the issue?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Dunno edde, I give up with these types of threads on here, I might just go make an ABS thread for giggles.

 

[Clio_dci100]

Wow, these discussions get pretty heated :S
why not take a look at youtube or sumthing and create a solution...

I havent checked to see but there must be some video evidence of a race between a similar powered diesel & petrol car...

That way we can forget theory & get down to the facts

Well thats my opinion anyway

 

[edde]

Wow, these discussions get pretty heated :S
why not take a look at youtube or sumthing and create a solution...

I havent checked to see but there must be some video evidence of a race between a similar powered diesel & petrol car...

That way we can forget theory & get down to the facts

Well thats my opinion anyway

There few race series where diesel can enter. Lemans is one so if thats right diesel is faster.

Theres no simple answer though anywasy to whats quicker as there to many varibles.

 

[Ian_182]

Forget the cost of the car and all that but my father in law had a 530D and it used to beat my 182.I think there 240 bhp.Now he has a 535D and it wasted me before i sold it.

 

[kyle_sxi]

diesel schmiesel.

Can you get 200 bhp out of a 2.0 NA diesel? Can you f**k.

Petrol FTW. Turbos are for gays.

im not being funny but whoeva wrote this can someone shoot them now please :rasp:
there are lots of people on here with 2.0 na touching the 200 bhp mare