ARB + 15s and body roll

[Z4MCSL]

Hi all,

Just did my first day at Brands yesterday which was awesome.

It was also my second only track day after Abingdon and sooo different. The up and down nature of the track made me much more aware of body roll so I am wondering what the best options are.

I have a 182 with both cup packs

It has, I beleive,Eibach springs on it. The way that track smashed my tyres up I am likely to look at getting some 15 inch speedlines with better tires.

I was then reading about the Whiteline ARB which looks like a good mod.

Interested in thoughts on how much impact smaller wheels and an ARB will have on body roll. Any thing else I should be considering.

Thanks

 

[David Stuart]

Smaller wheels won’t really affect body roll. But unless you are doing gravel rally I would avoid the 15” speed lines. They are very heavy. TD1.2s are good, pretty light and decent price. Oz super / ultraleggeras are great but £800 a set.


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[Z4MCSL]

actually I think I meant the team dynamic ones - had speedline in my head for some reason.

I wondered whether the smaller wheels would impact roll as they must effectively lowere the car by another 25mm depending on the tyres?

 

[David Stuart]

Yeah but your roll centre and centre of gravity will still be the same relative to each other. So no really change on the things that effect body roll.

Only way to combat it is.

Stiffer springs
ARB’s as you have mentioned
Roll centre kit.

Your choices will need to be made depending on what you will be using the car for.


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[Danith]

Rear ARB will make the most difference and make no negative change to the ride or anything else for that matter.

You'll be amazed at the difference, easy to fit and inexpensive

 

[Z4MCSL]

Ah ok, so the car is not a daily and its for me to get into trackdays with basically.

The aim is basically to not s**t myself as I get it wrong down Paddock Hill Bend !? 🤣🤣

 

[JamesBryan]

The rear ARB will make it lively in the wet, just so you know.

As for wheels, I have speedline 2118's and they are fairly heavy but I don't know any different because that's all I've ever used on road and track.

Braid Maxlight's are also another option available from Pure Motorsport in Clio fitment. They're only 6.9kg per wheel.

 

[Z4MCSL]

When you say lively in the wet......

 

[David Stuart]

The rear ARB will make it lively in the wet, just so you know.

As for wheels, I have speedline 2118's and they are fairly heavy but I don't know any different because that's all I've ever used on road and track.

Braid Maxlight's are also another option available from Pure Motorsport in Clio fitment. They're only 6.9kg per wheel.

Disconnect one side on a wet track. Very easy to adjust / disconnect.


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[Martin_172]

Remember bodyroll isn't the devil. While it's not a race car the 182 out the box makes a good fun track car, more so with a set of springs such as the ebachs you have fitted.

How old are the dampers?

A lot of People buy their desired car as a track car then spend thousands on mods having done one, two or none track days before. Decent set of tyres, a good set of front pads, flush the brake fluid thru, make sure the springs and dampers are in good condition and get some track time under your belt before worrying about mods

 

[Z4MCSL]

Remember bodyroll isn't the devil. While it's not a race car the 182 out the box makes a good fun track car, more so with a set of springs such as the ebachs you have fitted.

How old are the dampers?

A lot of People buy their desired car as a track car then spend thousands on mods having done one, two or none track days before. Decent set of tyres, a good set of front pads, flush the brake fluid thru, make sure the springs and dampers are in good condition and get some track time under your belt before worrying about mods

Yeah totally agree...that was my second day, I have 2 more at abingdon in September which is very very flat so it's not an emergent thing. I tried to get some tuition yesterday but it didnt happen, and that is probably the priority.

I guess I just wondered if a little less roll would give me more confidence in some of the corners...or maybe it is more a case of more driving will make me appreciate I am not about to flip the car anytime soon.

There were quite a few heavily modded clios there and watching them stay so flat through some of the corners got me thinking.

I've done the brakes with PBS pads and new discs etc and so much better, last time I set them fire ?!?!?


No idea how old the dampers are, maybe I'll look at that.

The other cheap upgrade I was looking at was powerflex bits and pieces...

 

[JamesBryan]

Disconnect one side on a wet track. Very easy to adjust / disconnect.


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I know that 😉

 

[JB21]

Check your shocks for leaks and age related wear before buying anything, if they look and feel past it fit some new ones. Fitting sticker tyres to worn shocks will just create even more roll, tyre wear and general unpleasantness.

As mentioned a RARB is the best bang for buck mod. I'd also fit front camber bolts and have it properly aligned.

 

[Martin_172]

Yeah totally agree...that was my second day, I have 2 more at abingdon in September which is very very flat so it's not an emergent thing. I tried to get some tuition yesterday but it didnt happen, and that is probably the priority.

I guess I just wondered if a little less roll would give me more confidence in some of the corners...or maybe it is more a case of more driving will make me appreciate I am not about to flip the car anytime soon.

There were quite a few heavily modded clios there and watching them stay so flat through some of the corners got me thinking.

I've done the brakes with PBS pads and new discs etc and so much better, last time I set them fire ?!?!?


No idea how old the dampers are, maybe I'll look at that.

The other cheap upgrade I was looking at was powerflex bits and pieces...

Yeah tuition is a fantastic idea and worth more than any mod!

I've known standard dampers to be shot after a few years depending on conditions and use and springs so it's worth looking at. For a dedicated track car there will be better options I'm sure for replacements but the stock ones are cheap and I've always liked them for a road car when paired with a set of springs.

I've just fitted powerflex rear beam bushes, rear shock mounts, front ARB bushes and lower arm bushes. I'm finding the front lower arm powerflex black a bit stiff for the road but the rest feel really nice

 

[Steven103]

more driving will make me appreciate I am not about to flip the car anytime soon.

I notice you've mentioned rolling in a few threads.

This is an absolute classic "slip or tip" GCSE physics question and fortunately it's really easy and above all incredibly fun to prove that it's impossible to roll a car without hitting something. Have a look at this online calculator.

Wolfram Demonstrations Project

Explore thousands of free applications across science, mathematics, engineering, technology, business, art, finance, social sciences, and more.

demonstrations.wolfram.com

Set weight to 100lbs (call this a scale model)
Set width to 18"
Set height to 12" (just guessing that a Clio is about 2/3 as tall as it is wide)
Set coefficient of friction to 0.95 (pretty good estimate for a high performance road car)
Set applied force as high as it will go
Set height applied to 3" (our car is 12" tall, the top half is literally just air and glass, all the heavy engine/gearbox/suspension/fuel/people etc is in the lower 6", so the midpoint of all the heavy stuff is reasonably around 3")

First point, the online calculator thingy says that the "car" will slide. There is not enough "grip" to make it tip over.

Second point, it says that the "critical" applied force to make it tip over is 300lb. Remember that it weighs 100lb. So to make the "Clio" tip over it needs to be cornering at 3g. Cue a youtube onboard of an F1 car...



Turn 3, 50mph mostly around low 2s with a split second peak of 2.8g
Turn 4, 75mph mostly high 2s with a split second peak of 3.2g
Turn 6, 130mph mostly low 4s
Turn 7, 140mph mostly high 4s with a peak of 5g

So even an F1 car can't sustain 3g cornering until somewhere around 100mph. GT4 cars sustain low to mid 1s with peaks in the high 1s (professional driver, brand new slicks, big wing). GT3 cars add functional dive planes/flat floors/diffusers/wings (designed by the likes of Porsche in a wind tunnel, not some guesswork plastic screwed onto a Clio by a facebook "motorsport" company) and peak around 2.5g.

I wish I'd just googled this sooner. MarkCup70 in a 200 at bedford... absolute max 1.1g for about a nanosecond. @MarkCup can you remember what tyres you were using that day?





TLR literally no Clio on earth has enough grip to roll itself mid-corner unless you hit something...

 

[Z4MCSL]

This is awesome thanks

 

[Steven103]

Or for those who don't like logic, here's 4 minutes of Clios barrel rolling only after they have hit something

 

[Z4MCSL]

The one into the lake is pretty terrifying

 

[David Stuart]

Or for those who don't like logic, here's 4 minutes of Clios barrel rolling only after they have hit something

I have been googling for videos of clios rolling having it a kerb etc. [emoji23]


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[MarkCup]

I notice you've mentioned rolling in a few threads.

This is an absolute classic "slip or tip" GCSE physics question and fortunately it's really easy and above all incredibly fun to prove that it's impossible to roll a car without hitting something. Have a look at this online calculator.

Wolfram Demonstrations Project

Explore thousands of free applications across science, mathematics, engineering, technology, business, art, finance, social sciences, and more.

demonstrations.wolfram.com

Set weight to 100lbs (call this a scale model)
Set width to 18"
Set height to 12" (just guessing that a Clio is about 2/3 as tall as it is wide)
Set coefficient of friction to 0.95 (pretty good estimate for a high performance road car)
Set applied force as high as it will go
Set height applied to 3" (our car is 12" tall, the top half is literally just air and glass, all the heavy engine/gearbox/suspension/fuel/people etc is in the lower 6", so the midpoint of all the heavy stuff is reasonably around 3")

First point, the online calculator thingy says that the "car" will slide. There is not enough "grip" to make it tip over.

Second point, it says that the "critical" applied force to make it tip over is 300lb. Remember that it weighs 100lb. So to make the "Clio" tip over it needs to be cornering at 3g. Cue a youtube onboard of an F1 car...



Turn 3, 50mph mostly around low 2s with a split second peak of 2.8g
Turn 4, 75mph mostly high 2s with a split second peak of 3.2g
Turn 6, 130mph mostly low 4s
Turn 7, 140mph mostly high 4s with a peak of 5g

So even an F1 car can't sustain 3g cornering until somewhere around 100mph. GT4 cars sustain low to mid 1s with peaks in the high 1s (professional driver, brand new slicks, big wing). GT3 cars add functional dive planes/flat floors/diffusers/wings (designed by the likes of Porsche in a wind tunnel, not some guesswork plastic screwed onto a Clio by a facebook "motorsport" company) and peak around 2.5g.

I wish I'd just googled this sooner. MarkCup70 in a 200 at bedford... absolute max 1.1g for about a nanosecond. @MarkCup can you remember what tyres you were using that day?





TLR literally no Clio on earth has enough grip to roll itself mid-corner unless you hit something...

I'm pretty sure I was on Yoko AD08 tyres. This was on an otherwise completely standard non-Cup Clio 200.

 

[charltjr]

Completely agree with what's already been said, but what I will add is the whiteline RARB made the car much more fun on track IMO. It didn't necessarily make me faster, but it made me smile. For the money I'd certainly have one again if I had a 1*2, once I'd made sure the shocks and bushes were all in good order.