Best hot hatch stable or not

[Scutch]

It seems to me that on other forums people dont particularly like the French cars. Someone always has something to say about them being awful quality or have a comment because its French.

This one guy has just bought a 172 Cup and posted pictures, to which someone has replied "Looks nice but its still French so you havent seen the light yet" which kind of ticked me off to which I replied

"lol @ the French car jibes. The Clio Sport range and even the Clio in general is considered the best hot hatch genre ever. The Clio Williams has won so many accolades as best hot hatch of all time and it was only when the 182 arrived that Evo and AutoCar magazines both declared it had finally been knocked off its perch. The 205 GTi - French. The 106 GTi - French. The Saxo VTS - French. The Renault 5 GTT - French. French cars may have a reasonably poor build quality (although yet to see it on either of my Williams cars or the 182) but they produce the best hot hatches in the world, not just in my opinion but in fact."

Looking over this I do agree with what Ive wrote but Im expecting retribution of some people. Am I right in what Im saying or is there a better hot hatch country than France??

 

[Sport182]

Id say you were right, hence the fact I own one!!

 

[Scutch]

lol yeah. Maybe a biased forum to ask opinions on. Silly me.

[Edited by Scutchio on 4/17/2005 1:12:33 PM]

 

[Sport182]

but in saying that. I own one for a reason. Looked at lots of other cars and personally think the 182 is the best all round for the money and the drive

 

[DH_GTI]

i would say the build quailty was good had no probs with my clio as of yet (touch wood) wot about the golf gti tho was the start of hot hatches according to some

 

[Scutch]

lol funny you should say that Dave. Got a reply saying
"i think that you are forgetting the first and best true hot hatch the golf gti mk1 and all the following models i would have to disagree that the clio is the best hot hatch of all time read the comment in the back of evo about the performance times and see what they say. Perhaps the best hot hatch of the moment but then a few people would disagree"

Ahh...its all fun and games.

 

[Toypop]

The sort of things you get problems with on the Clio (sensors and stuff) didnt exist on the Mk1 Golf GTI.

They do exist on the current GTI but at £20k it misses the point of the Mk1 in that it was affordable and also misses the point in that the original concept was a supermini not a small family car.

The Japanese make good hot hatches but again the prices are too high.

The original concept was a widely affordable car that could keep up with top sports cars down a twisty road. I consider widely affordable these days to be sub £15k.

Cars that cost the same price as an Impreza WRX are way off the mark.

 

[Daz]

I agree, apart from the 182 knocking the Williams off of its perch.

(Basing this on the fact Ive never seen anyone (proper magazines, reviewers etc..) say the 182 is a better drivers car.. altho, Ive never seen a direct comparison either.. heh.)

 

[Ben H]

I hate the idea that VW advertising has propogated: i.e. that the Golf GTi was the original hot hatch. BULLLSHEET!! Look at the Renault 5 Gordini for example, or Lotus Sunbeam (Talbot).

In innovation, as in most other areas, the French rule the hot hatch roost.

Renault in particular have pulled off what the others cannot - that not one of their hot hatches has been anything but the best on the market.

 

[Toypop]

If you want my opinion, the original hot hatch (although not a hatch) was the Mini Cooper.

 

[Scutch]

It wasnt a stab at who was the catalyst behind the hot hatch genre. I was merely making a point that the French are probably the best manufacturers of hot hatches of all time. To say the Golf Mk1 is the best Golf GTi ever made is amazing, as Volkswagon clearly havent been able to make a better one since. Renault improve on theirs every year whereas the VW is still stuck in the 70s looking for their best (although I have to admit Id swap the 182 for an R32 Golf!)

 

[Toypop]

The Mk1 Golf is not the best hot hatch ever made. Perhaps it was the most influencial but I have driven my mates and its not even close to modern hot hatches including the latest GTI.

 

[Little Newms]

Ill be honest! I have bought my car for thrills and a car to enjoy! Not build quality... and it does this

 

[Daz]

People just like to dislike Renault.. not our fault they know how to make hot hatches, is it!

 

[cupsportmad]

Their jealous, all the hot hatch vw and cars made of reject vw parts have to be modded to do what a renault sport can. Probably grumpy about their increased insurance costs.

 

[brian182]

personally i think the clio is one of the coolest looking hot hatches out there just now , it always turns heads im on my third rs now and cant see me changing from renault . although if i hadnt taken the wife along with me id be driving a 225 now

 

[18ME]

Not everyone who doesnt drive a Renault Sport Clio slates them...

I drive mainly German cars and have a very radid one at the moment so I frequent Tyresmoke.net etc and most people on their do sing the hot Clios praises. I would say that proper car enthusiasts do know that the Clio is probably the best hot hatch on the road for the money. Its only others ignorance that would knock them. I wouldnt turn my nose up at swapping for the day with my wifes 182.

IMO only the Mini Cooper S comes close money wise but then you do have to spend a lot on extras.

 

[Gaz_]

i had this on puntosports the other day. Used to have a punto gt, which i loved to bits. Sold it for a cup and in terms of an overall package its way ahead, the punto had the turbod engine which is good, and you can get alot from it, but the chassis is a major weakness, very soggy, where as the cup is awsomme. This lad is was asking what yould you have, clio v6, or golf R32.... Alot of the comments were the usual, yeah but its still french, the panels will fall off etc, they make sh*t cars.... He also went on to add that he would class french cars BELOW italian . Granted there are some nice looking alfas around etc, but in terms of classic hot hatches what do you remember

italy..... erm

france, 205 gti 5gtt, 106gti/saxo vts, clio 16v/willams, 172cup etc



im still waiting the reply, off him....

 

[cupsportmad]

Yeah the mini is a good car, my real reason for hating it is because the germans made a success out of something that is supposed to be british. Then again driving a renault isnt very patriotic either.

 

[benhwolves]

I think the French are spot on with their cars, in the early 90s a lot of manufactures toned their cars down and concentrated on safety, where as, as mentioned above, some cracking hatches came out of France - VTS, 106GTi, Williams......

 

[Munson]

The best thing to do with a guy who says French cars are sh*t is to strap him into an RS Clio and leather it down some lanes, ESP off, threading it through S-bends and over crests, clipping apexs (where its safe to so so kids) and generally ragging the f**k out of it. Then pull up - slap his face with a wet kipper - say "there endeth the lesson" and boot him out on the verge. Sorted.

 

[Toypop]

UKTV People now.

Clarksons car years about the history of hot hatches.

 

[TheJesus]

Engine, fine.

Interior and dash, fine, no rattles after 10 years.

Everything around the engine, pants.

Gearbox, pants.

Shell, pants

Thats about it really, engines are bullet proof, but the rest of the cars are prone to rust etc and everything around the engine is generally a weak point imo, but treat the car right and it will be fine. Golf GTI MK1 is not a hot hatch, so no point comparing it or even putting it in the same sentence, same with the MK2 GTI, sloooooooooow... Really, theres only one winner, the Williams, obviously. Some magazines say the 182 is the new hot hatch king... not really, but it lined the magazine and dealers pockets, so who cares if they write lies?

 

[edde]

Quote: Originally posted by TheJesus on 17 April 2005Thats about it really, engines are bullet proof, but the rest of the cars are prone to rust etc and everything around the engine is generally a weak point imo, but treat the car right and it will be fine. Golf GTI MK1 is not a hot hatch, so no point comparing it or even putting it in the same sentence, same with the MK2 GTI, sloooooooooow... Really, theres only one winner, the Williams, obviously. Some magazines say the 182 is the new hot hatch king... not really, but it lined the magazine and dealers pockets, so who cares if they write lies?

Biggest thing IMO is the deprciation on a 182 when you drive it out the showroom costs about the same as a Williams.

 

[Big G]

Its a typical urban myth / bandwagon people jump on to say "its French". People on my old car owners club, just past their test saying "was going to get a Clio/Saxo/Pug, but hey its French so i didnt" - what the fck does it mean?

To sum up some other cars:

My cousin has a Merc SL 500 and its never out of the garage with endless faults. My mates mum bought a VW Beetle, got half way down the road from the dealership only for the engine management light to come on. As far as quality of build/dash/plastics, my mates Seat Ibiza is a hell of a lot worse than my 182 and most recently, my girlfriends Nissa Micra has started randomly pulling to the left. Oh.. and the seat handles have broken twice.

So theres a Jap car, a couple of German ones (one of which is £50k+) and a Spanish VAG platform car - all of which have been a much worse headache than my French car.

I do admit i had a fault with my coolant temp sensor, but nothing the dealership couldnt fix in a day.

Fck em i say.

Oh, and, my sisters Type-R blew up after 6 months and needed an engine rebuild.

 

[TheJesus]

Quote: Originally posted by edde on 17 April 2005

Quote: Originally posted by TheJesus on 17 April 2005
Thats about it really, engines are bullet proof, but the rest of the cars are prone to rust etc and everything around the engine is generally a weak point imo, but treat the car right and it will be fine. Golf GTI MK1 is not a hot hatch, so no point comparing it or even putting it in the same sentence, same with the MK2 GTI, sloooooooooow... Really, theres only one winner, the Williams, obviously. Some magazines say the 182 is the new hot hatch king... not really, but it lined the magazine and dealers pockets, so who cares if they write lies?

Biggest thing IMO is the deprciation on a 182 when you drive it out the showroom costs about the same as a Williams.

yup, I could buy a 172 Exclusive (no. 47 iirc) for £5k with low miles... my friends just sold it to another friend of mine and its amazing how a car with all that extraness can be so cheap... it was tempting anyway, but I dont have the ca$h lying around at the moment and the interior would get trashed being all beige/white... pretty quick too, it spanked his bros Scooby wagon anyway.

 

[Av_Dave]

I have a few people at work commenting on the fact i have just ordered a 182, unless you have driven one or been in one you cant understand how good they really are, my last car was a Lexus and my current one is a Range Rover, so i was comparing it to them ,and i dont think the build quality is bad at all, far from it if you compare it to similar cars in this price bracket, I am getting rid of my rangie when i get my 182, so they really cant be that bad, some people just dont know how much fun there really missing out on!

[Edited by Av_Dave on 17 April 2005 at 7:45pm]

 

[gunnergibson]

at the end of the day, renault has dominated most motoring sport events/.. and still continues to dominate some....F1, Ralling, Touring cars(once) clio cup,and the new megane trophy





Wheres the subaru team in F1, where the volkswagen team ?.. the only thing the germans are good at is steeling your pool space in spain. ..seriously though i have to admit the germans are masters of quality control and engineering....but there pedigree in motorsports is nowhere near Renaults amazing track record.

 

[D-CUP]

Quote: Originally posted by Big G on 17 April 2005
Oh, and, my sisters Type-R blew up after 6 months and needed an engine rebuild.

Really? Contact Top Gear then as according to Clarkson not one VTEC engine has EVER failed.

 

[D-CUP]

I think Renault have really captured the Hot Hatch spirit. The best hot hatch deal would have to be a year old 182 that has already taken the depreciation hit but doesnt have too many miles.

Type-R doesnt have the steering/handling, Golg GTi is too expensive and aimed at 40 year olds, Cooper S is too expensive and doesnt have the build quality (come in mine and hear the rattles)

 

[blink172]

Renault have a decent history making excellent driver orientated hot hatches, No one else does. Most of the other manufacturers have one car in their range people love. Renault have about 7. R5 T1&2. Clio 16V, Williams, 172, 182, V6

End of!

 

[Toypop]

Quote: Originally posted by D-CUP on 17 April 2005

Quote: Originally posted by Big G on 17 April 2005
Oh, and, my sisters Type-R blew up after 6 months and needed an engine rebuild.

Really? Contact Top Gear then as according to Clarkson not one VTEC engine has EVER failed.

A lad I know had his engine blow as well. This is an urban myth about their engines never failing. There are a number of variations. Some say its only those more powerful engines they use in Japan that havent ever blown whilst another version says the VTEC system itself has never failed.

 

[jonnyboy]

renault might not know much about how to make interiors not rattle but really thats where the problems end with the 172. Mechanically mines has 23k of pretty enthusiastic use not a hint of a clutch going or any probs with the engine etc. In fact Renault are probably the only brand I have any kind of loyalty to. Trading up to the megane 225 which does actually seem a bit better screwed together than my clio. Either way renault have the hatch market completely sewn up. A 2nd hand 172 or brand new 182 are simply the best £ for lb you can spend if you want a fast car.

 

[Big G]

Quote: Originally posted by D-CUP on 17 April 2005
Quote: Originally posted by Big G on 17 April 2005
Oh, and, my sisters Type-R blew up after 6 months and needed an engine rebuild.[/QUOTE]Really? Contact Top Gear then as according to Clarkson not one VTEC engine has EVER failed.


Yes really, and i laugh everytime i watch Clarksons Hot Metal DVD when he says that. Honda had the car for five weeks in total. They handed it back sooner, but the oil warning light kept coming on. They also never fitted the airbox to the air intake pipe properly.

But hey! Dont let that stop you believing that japs cars are super reliable.

 

[ChrisR]

When I was looking for a car to replace the dead 19 I looked long and hard for a worthy replacement.

Everytime I found somethign and asked peoples opinions I was always greated by "yeah, but its still French".

The problem was, no other country made small, relatively new, fast, cheap hatches.

Looking at cars say 5 years old, out of all availble the french hatches were the most reasonably priced and also decent performers.

For my budget I could have had a dog of a 1.8t Golf or Leon that would have had mega miles.

Could have gone a bit older and got a Civic VTi, but then theres a matter of finding one.

No ford or Vaux thats 5 years old fitted the bill, only one I fancies was a mk4 Astra GSi, but at 12k was over my current budget.

So ended up with an X plate 172 for little over £5500 and really cant fault it.

But I looked at/drove:

172 cup
Xsara VTS
106 GTi
206 GTi
306 GTi-6
Saxo VTS (forgive me, I was getting desperate )

 

[ChrisR]

Quote: Originally posted by D-CUP on 17 April 2005
Quote: Originally posted by Big G on 17 April 2005
Oh, and, my sisters Type-R blew up after 6 months and needed an engine rebuild.[/QUOTE]Really? Contact Top Gear then as according to Clarkson not one VTEC engine has EVER failed.


No, no vtec SYSTEM has ever failed, not engine, theres a difference!

i.e. no engine failed becase the vtec system was faulty.

Loads of gone due to driver abuse, low oil etc

Like M3 Evo engines, solid engines but the VANOS (BMW vtec type system) system can stuff up meaning big bill (well 2k so not huge) time