big dilemma

[adiclio16v]

right i think im gonna have to change the gearbox soon as there is some bearing noise, so i might as well stick a new clutch in

so if the engines coming out to fit the new box and clutch i might as well get other stuff done at same time

my engines done 60k nearly should i fit megane bottom end and go to 2.0 with cams and fettled head

also i like my car to rev high what will i have to do the crank and con rods to rev it to 7000 instead of 6500 i.e stronger bearings, balancing e.t.c

also would like an idea of cost, i know matbrown has a 2.0 how much did your engine work cost you? if youd rather not say could you PM me

adi

 

[BenR]

high rpm on teh std crank will need basic blueprinting and balancing......but i would stick with teh 1.8 as that has a better crank and can rev FAR higher with work....itll sound sexier.....and you can get about the same max power.

 

[adiclio16v]

so if you had a 1.8 16v ben, what would you do to it and what sort of power would you expect?

adi

 

[Matbrown]

Adi,

My 2.0L Conversion at Hillpower cost the best part of £3,000!

And it was money well spent, id definately do it again.



Mat.

 

[BenR]

a good 190-200bhp from a high revving screamer...which i love.

I would do some flow research on the head as some people say that the std head flows more than enough as std and velocity is poor as std....

But i would fit at least the willy 32mm valves, get bronze guides, throttle bodies of course!, a billet crank to get up to 9000-10,000rpm (fingers crossed), steel rods and pistons, the oblig exhaust system (probaly a mild steel race item), dry sumped...etc etc etc.

Cam profile i would need to research as im not sure i would jump straight into buying from kent piper etc as i dont know how good their basic master cam profile is. The proably go for something that wont drive below 4500rpm.......all fun!

 

[paddymph]

errrr me too!

Paddy

-sorry just trying to look intellectual, just agree with Ben...???

 

[adiclio16v]

that sounds mental heh heh i like,

but i would like to keep it quite driveable, but as its not my daily driver i dont do lots of miles in it it doesnt matter too much, but it has to be quite reliable as when i go out in it i like to cane it,

adi

 

[BenR]

reliability wont be a probs if you keep the profile low, oil clean and generally look after it......will be just as good as std.

 

[adiclio16v]

i know you prefer n/a ben, but theres that little man sat on my shoulder whispering the word "turbo"

need to look into it all get some prices

adi

 

[Nick Read]

turbo turbo turbo turbo turbo turbo

but if you wanna go for NA, I put together a possible spec for a tidy 200bhp lump, gathering together all the expertise from the boffins (ie Ben) on here and with various Renault tuners etc, before I decided to go for my turbo conversion:

worked-on 1.8 Stage 2 head

285/Sports R cams to suit Willy lump (not really 285 inlet and exhaust but thats how theyre catalogued. Either Kent or Piper do a nice profile thats about as far as you can go and retain hydraulic tappets)

2.0 Megane (F7R) bottom end

Weber Alpha throttle body system (full kit including *everything* except the rolling road to set it up.)

LED tailpipe trim and shark attack LED thingy for the roof

 

[BenR]

ah, turbos are the easy mans way out......

and youll loose that sexy 16V induction roar......youll only get a whistle....boring.

but power is there........

in the end its preference, and i dont know what all the fuss about turbos are!

theyre not as exciting as a highly modded NA motor where you search and search for the last HP, instead of turning that knob a little further.....

*sigh* i think i appreciate the art in tunning more than the power. LOL

 

[adiclio16v]

yeh but its two completely differant things, throttle body noise is just pure sex but then again you cant beat the turbo noise and that feeling when it winds up and puts you back in your seat

dump valve and wastegate chatter mmmmmm

sorry carried away lol

adi

 

[Ben j]

is nick that little man on your shoulder?

 

[2 live]

heh n/a is the way to go.

i agree with ben lol i see nos and turbos /chargers as the last push .... i.e when no more work can be carried out to your engine in n/a form

 

[BenR]

i dunno........

when i hear a dump valve and wastegate......i just think.........ZZzzzzzz

its not like you workes super dooper hard for that last 2BHP by changing the shaper of the inside radii to induce more turbulance etc etc

 

[BUTRE]

Turbo can be tricky when driving... you can get (as I did when driving a moded Fiesta RS) real problems puting the horses on the ground. Straight line is ok, but when coming out the corner...

Where can you get the valver head fully worked?? Do you really need the 32mm willy inlet valves? I was surprised with the Nick Hill post about TBs and inlet valves.

 

[BenR]

i would do the head myself, but you can get it done by many cylinder head specialists, although they might not be familiar or have done much research on the engine.

I too was surprised, but its something it would like to investigate......not that im doubting his words. Even with the Big port 4AGE engine (which is alrger than teh f7) only being a 1.6 it was only too big for teh rd, in atlantic trim it pushes out about 220-230bhp.

 

[adiclio16v]

dunno what to do yet dont think i can afford the turbo, 2.0 conv is in reach or do i stick with 1.8

i thought from the previous threads on TBs you needed smaller valves to make it more drivable and more power, would the weber alpha package not make a good differance in performance then on its own with jus cams and normal headwork i.e not smaller valves

i cant afford 2.0 bottom end head work and cams and throttle bodies at the min, do i go for a compromise or keep saving, trouble is dont know how long my gearbox bearings are gonna last and wanted to get evrythin done at same time,

i think at the min i might go for 2.0 with headwork and cams

ultimately though i want a reliable 180-190 bhp @ fly (maybe 200 he he) and dont wanna keep pullin me engine to bits to get more go.

 

[BenR]

i would go for the 1.8 on TBs with cams, get it setup and itll rival the best 2ltr setup on std injection......

i can see about 180bhp with a slightly modified head and TBs so long as the cam profile is right.

you might need to get the bottom end blueprinted and ba;anced to make some extra rpm and get the power from that.

But smaller valves wasnt the conversation, it was re: smaller port diameters.

with smaller ports, you have a lower port volume, meaning less change being static during closed inlet valve time, and when its open, the same volume of air will have a higher volocity through that smaller port than teh std larger one. this in turn means more inertia, and on teh compression stroke, the cylinder moving up, the inlet vlave is still open for a period of time (depending on cam profile) and its harder to change the direction of the incommin charge, thus a higher VE.

BUT, the only thing with his saying that std is too large (which i can undertand in some cases) is why does he offer a modded head then? unless its to add material.

But a larger port has a higher peak flow which means more air IS closer to the inlet valve, this means a closer charge (despite static charge and fuel hanging around with fuel dropout and poor mixture at low rpm) whic in turn means whe the valve opens, a ready charge is close and can enter faster.

velocity at high rpm will be fine for fuel suspension AND velocity to keep VE high at high rpm.

so this is the trade off which occurs.

when you tune a motor, you effectively move the power band up the rpm scale. as its all about processing more air to get that power. So, you have to decide on a low rpm tractable unit ( std 2ltr or 1.8) or a high rpm high power, but low rpm torque (highly modded). so its all about tradeoffs and making a choice.........a compramise.........

 

[coolspot007007]

Right i didnt really get much of that to do with the ports, so here goes. As i now have a stage 2 head, I was thinking, like Nick, the best thing to go for is 2L bottom end and throttle bodies. So Ben do you think a stage 2 head, and some F7R 285 cams would run ok without building up the ports and what would in Idiots guide terms please be the benefit of doing it and not? Also how much should i expect to pay for blueprinting and balancing? And finally would chucking in some k-tec power pistons be a good plan/worth it?

 

[coolspot007007]

oh and does billet crank = lots of cash, im assuming it does.

 

[BenR]

what are Ktec power pistons? material, manufacture technique and compression ratio increase?

blueprinting and balancing should cost about 100-120 if you GIVE them the engine.

OH! billet crank does = LOTS AND LOTS of moolah, and were talking a grand plus. but in this months CCC in teh parts section for sale, there is a billet crank for sale (not sure of capacity) for about 500 or 800 quid, a real bargain!!!

oh, and stage 2 head from where, as stages are usually made up terms by tunners to give the buyer an idea of the stage of tune. and they are not comparable with others.

But im assuming stage 2 has had nild port work and the new valves with a back cut and 3 angle valve seats. So, a set of TBs will give a great improvement over std injection as it can be controlled far better with more minute differences accounted for......and its not so crude as air in/spray fuel.

a 2ltr bottom end will give more torque, lower max RPM on a std crank (as im not sure the std 2ltr item is in fact as good as the 7p item), but peak power wont really be changed as teh head will still flow the same.......unless you cant process as much air in the 1.8 trim.

I would personally stick with the 1.8 and use 2ltr head parts, its more individual and making a 2ltr killer would be fun.....and besides, a motorbike is more fun than a tractor! LOL

idoits guide: 2ltr & stage 2 head with cams = lots more power, great tractability but power band moved up the rpm scale hence you need to get the bottom end worked to get higher rpm and the power available from that cam.

 

[coolspot007007]

I see, finally, its a Hill Power stage 2 (of course) by the way. Aint got a clue about the power pistons reduced compression ratio and hopefully nice shiny forged items for £821.33 inc VAT

"A set of 4 pistons available for the F7 16v engines. These are direct replacement uprated pistons, which increase the compression ratio of the engine to increase the power output. They are best used in highly tuned engines and are being used in our Clio 16v demo car engine in an effort to produce a 200bhp 1.8l 16v engine without the need to use throttle bodies. 230+bhp is also achievable from the 2.0l 16v engine as fitted to the Megane and Williams"

 

[BenR]

ah, forged sttel items...cool, sounds nice.

but look at that price!

try accralite, they should be cheaper!

the pistons merely increase CR......

 

[adiclio16v]

right then so you think the weber alpha TB package would be a good first investment then

then save bit more cash and decide on final spec from there defo cams and head work need to look into profile e.t.c, maybe chuck in a set of forged pistons balancing and blueprinting that can be done when gearbox and clutch go in and new brakes= lots of cash he he, ahh well have to pimp myself on the street

adi

 

[BenR]

well, the pre 98 clios have VERY VERY limitd space under the bonnet for TBs hence the stubbier std inlet manifold over the 19 16V.

and one problem is the rad is sat right in front of the TB inlet when installed.....so again, you have to work your way round it, either fit a shorter rad but wider or move it down a bit, or fit the jenvey 30mm tall TBs whith a short inlet manifold and fit an airbox over the TB inlets, some thing like the reverie carbon one is compact.

But TBs is always what i would stump up for first.

its just class..........

 

[BUTRE]

Nice.. this is good homework.