Brake Options

[Rojer]

I know this has probably been covered, but i need some new brakes after managing to set my standard ones on fire the other night and have a few questions after considering my options.

197 Brembos, are they worth it? Braking performance dramatically improved? Will they fit behind a standard (non cup) 182 alloy? Can you fit them and 300mm discs behind the standard rim?

If i don't go for those it would be the Brembo HC discs with standard calipers, would it be worth going for grooved discs? Anyone with experience of those discs?

Pads I would be using the DS2500, with ATE Supergold fluid and probably Goodridge braided lines. Unless anyone can recommend something better?

Application wise the car is mainly fast road with the odd track day thrown in.

Finally what is the best way to bed in new pads and discs? Some people say go easy on them for 100ish miles others say go and abuse them straight away so bit confused.

 

[JB21]

What tyres will you be using? Cause if they're not the best there's no point adding more braking power if the tyres can't handle it. You'd be better just going Brembo HC discs and branded OE pads with cooling to the brakes if mediocre tyres.

I run Brembo HC discs and OE pads on the road and they're adequate.

 

[Rojer]

What tyres will you be using? Cause if they're not the best there's no point adding more braking power if the tyres can't handle it. You'd be better just going Brembo HC discs and branded OE pads with cooling to the brakes if mediocre tyres.

I run Brembo HC discs and OE pads on the road and they're adequate.

I have just fitted new PS3's all round so the tyres shouldn't be an issue.

 

[-Jamie-]

PS3s are very mediocre

 

[Rojer]

PS3s are very mediocre

Seriously? I find them very impressive on the road, I can't say for track and if the car goes on track it would be using proper track tyres.

 

[James363]

Crucially, what brakes were on there before? You mentioned they were standard, but do you mean standard pads as well? And which brand of OE pad? Are you using it on track or just fast road? I've found on my 172 cup road and targa rally car, that standard calipers are more than enough for extremely hard (responsible of course!) road use. The general consensus is that the 4 pots are only worth it for track use.
Pads wise, DS2500 are a good option, and replacing the lines and brake fluid while your at it is very sensible. In terms of discs, I use the Brembo HC ones, and have no issues, although have read some mixed opinions on whether the grooved ones are better or not.
George at RTR is well worth a message, he usually turns up on threads like this sooner or later! Many off here buy there discs and pads off him, I think he even does the lines as well. I don't think I've heard bad words about him either, which is rare for a car forum!

 

[Rojer]

Crucially, what brakes were on there before? You mentioned they were standard, but do you mean standard pads as well? And which brand of OE pad? Are you using it on track or just fast road? I've found on my 172 cup road and targa rally car, that standard calipers are more than enough for extremely hard (responsible of course!) road use. The general consensus is that the 4 pots are only worth it for track use.
Pads wise, DS2500 are a good option, and replacing the lines and brake fluid while your at it is very sensible. In terms of discs, I use the Brembo HC ones, and have no issues, although have read some mixed opinions on whether the grooved ones are better or not.
George at RTR is well worth a message, he usually turns up on threads like this sooner or later! Many off here buy there discs and pads off him, I think he even does the lines as well. I don't think I've heard bad words about him either, which is rare for a car forum!

As far as im aware the calipers are standard and the pads are some cheap brand. I would be using fast road and little bit of track. I have already spoken to George it's just a case of doing a bit more research on it. If the Brembos make a big difference and fit behind a standard wheel i would probably go for them. Otherwise just stick to the normal combo or HC discs and DS2500s.

 

[James363]

In that case, I would recommend keeping the standard callipers, if you don't go on track that much. The 4 pots are a fair step up in price. I'd go for DS2500, and the Hc discs, and would absolutely change the fluid, as well as changing the lines.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

The 4 pots will give you next to no increase in braking performance tbh. Standard pad and discs are fine, you can get an upgraded set of pads if you like.

 

[Rojer]

Hmm OK then, think i will stick to the standard calipers with the HC discs and DS2500 pads.

 

[masekwm]

Don't go for DS2500, I destroyed mine in 6 months.

RC6 on mine, they are amazing and night and day ahead of the DS2500

 

[imprezaworks]

That

 

[masekwm]

If you want to pop up to Flitwick, you can take mine for a drive to try them?

 

[JB21]

RC8 or GTFO! No seriously the DS2500 aren't great for what they cost, cold bite is lacking and can fade when really pushed on track, but it all depends how you drive and what tracks you plan on attending?

 

[stonejedi]

Ferodo DS2500 pads can be a bit wooden if the running in period is not done precisely,when I upgraded my Impreza brakes to AP's the DS2500 pad comes as standard in there kit when I first drove with them they were proper pants:down:I contacted Brembo/AP and FERODO technical departments to discuss the matter and they said I had not run them in properly so suggested that I start the procedure again: http://www.ferodoracing.com/products/car-racing/pad-bedding/ which I did and in all honesty they felt better for fast road driving but still not adequate for hard track use,the CL pads are a Very Good pad and can take a lot more abuse.About upgrading to four pots really its down to you....I never understand when people think that going to four pots won't give you extra bite....because it does!!!but saying that upgrading brakes is not just changing one thing its a combination of quite a few,even having budget tyres/old brake fluid rubber lines etc...can all contribute to poor braking performance,If you have the sterling to upgrade the calipers to four pots with disc pads fresh fluid braided lines go for it as it will only benefit you in the long run.SJ.

 

[oreA]

RC8 or GTFO!

What's GTFO? (Please!)

 

[stonejedi]

What's GTFO? (Please!)

LOL... its just slang: http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/gtfo.SJ.

 

[oreA]

I thought I had another brake pad to research 🙈:smile:.

If RC8s didn't exist tonguewink would Mintex 1155 be a decent option for light track use? They seem decent value compared to Ferodo & CL.

 

[stonejedi]

I thought I had another brake pad to research 🙈:smile:.

If RC8s didn't exist tonguewink would Mintex 1155 be a decent option for light track use? They seem decent value compared to Ferodo & CL. My DS2500 disintegrated after being left on the car for months in all weathers.

Mintex 1155 are quite good as it goes,they surprised me when I drove my mates Cossy which had them fitted they are abit more track focused then the DS2500 pads.SJ.

 

[imprezaworks]

1155 are very good Imo. Have used them at oulton before. They will be my next pad

@K_McDermott

 

[stonejedi]

The way to decide which brake pads to get comes down to your use and driving style as well,if you are a driver that's late/hard on brake pedal or what use they are going to get i.e fast road /regular track occasional track etc.... The pads that have already been mentioned on you thread will work across a broad spectrum of uses so you will be fine with one of the recommendations already,but just take into consideration the parameters I put above plus how much you are prepared to spend their should be a pad that will definitely work for you.SJ.

 

[JB21]

Pad list I've used so far and I've still not found one that suits my driving style, skill level (average) and car setup:

Brembo OE
Ferodo OE
Mintex OE
Ferodo DS2500
Ferodo DS3000
Carbone Lorraine RC5+
Carbone Lorraine RC8

I'll be trying RC6 or RC6E next...

 

[stonejedi]

Pad list I've used so far and I've still not found one that suits my driving style, skill level (average) and car setup:

Brembo OE
Ferodo OE
Mintex OE
Ferodo DS2500
Ferodo DS3000
Carbone Lorraine RC5+
Carbone Lorraine RC8

I'll be trying RC6 or RC6E next...

To have tried so much pads and still not be happy is telling me that they might be another problem contributing to the way that your brake set up feels to you,try to investigate systematically and you will most probably find out that it is something else.SJ.

 

[JB21]

To have tried so much pads and still not be happy is telling me that they might be another problem contributing to the way that your brake set up feels to you,try to investigate systematically and you will most probably find out that it is something else.SJ.

There's no problem I'm just not happy with the performance of the pads is all, every pad apart from the RC8's aren't up to how I want them to perform and the 8's over perform for my set-up, they'd be fine with a decent coilover kit and properly set-up but on budget springs (AMAX) they're a little to aggressive.

 

[K_McDermott]

Yeah as said by @imprezaworks

I've just fitted the 1155 compound mintex pads, I bedded them in once I'd fitted and since I've done that they've been epic, even without ABS breaking is miles better in wet ..

I'm yet to test them on track but I'm at Oulton next week so I'll find out then, if they're not as good on track I'm gunna go for CL pads next


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[alistairolsen]

If you've set the standard ones on fire, theyre broken. So start with maintenance.

• Ensure the pistons and sliders are free to move, without excess play in them.
• Ensure the pads are free to slide in the carriers, this normally means cleaning up the pad backplates, taking a file to the carriers to remove any corrosion and deposits (carefully) to leave the rails clean and then lightly greasing them
• Check the brakes apply and release cleanly with the car jacked up.
• It's worth spending some money on fluid and the ATE stuff has various (well documented) issues. Personally Ive flushed mine for some boggo dot 4 and won't be using it again. After this, Motul RBF seems to be well respected.

• Braided hoses are nice, I normally fit them as they are barely any more expensive than new lines and last longer, but tbh, the gains are minimal.

• New, good quality OEM spec disks are more than plenty and Brembo HC are this as well as cheap. @George@RTR_Parts is your man on here for brake parts.

• Decent branded standard spec pads are plenty for road use and tbh also for beginner track use, after that there are many options between £100 and £200. Skip mintex 1144 and Ferodo DS2500 and head straight for the RC5+/DS3000/DS1.11 type level.

• 4 pot upgrade is more about feel than braking effort or cooling IMHO, certainly if fitted to standard sized disks.

In your shoes, I'd be correcting whatever fault exists in your brakes by returning them to OE spec, but with upgraded hoses and fluid (to save doing this twice) and then see how you get on with them and upgrade accordingly, but there is no point justifying a 4 pot upgrade based on defective standard kit.

 

[stonejedi]

I just wish that performance friction done the 08 or 11 compound for Clio's as that is what I now run on my Impreza and they are the Dons they have been faultless on road or track zero fade and modulation that suits me down to a "T":blush:.SJ.

 

[White16valver]

Pad list I've used so far and I've still not found one that suits my driving style, skill level (average) and car setup:

Brembo OE
Ferodo OE
Mintex OE
Ferodo DS2500
Ferodo DS3000
Carbone Lorraine RC5+
Carbone Lorraine RC8

I'll be trying RC6 or RC6E next...

There's no problem I'm just not happy with the performance of the pads is all, every pad apart from the RC8's aren't up to how I want them to perform and the 8's over perform for my set-up, they'd be fine with a decent coilover kit and properly set-up but on budget springs (AMAX) they're a little to aggressive.

Interesting - is it just that you feel most pads lack initial bite and a consistent feel when both cold and hot? I find those qualities are the things that I'm looking for in a pad but it seems you can either get one or the other.

You might want to try the Pagid Blue as they're pretty good for the road while also being good for track work (good bite from cold, not too noise, consistent and strong when hot). I thought the RC5+ were a little better than them, though, so if you don't like the 5+...

I'm currently trying some Hawk HP+. The initial bite is high! but I'm wondering if they might be too much brake for a light car, especially on road where one doesn't often get a chance to get them up to a consistent temperature.

 

[JB21]

Mines mainly a track car, driven on the road only to test new mods and drive to and from track to which I use OE pads.

OE pads can be used on track as long as the braking zones aren't to heavy or close together but you've not got the coefficient to brake hard and late so need nannying.

DS2500 are OK but will fade when putting multiple hot laps in, similar to road pads but higher coefficient.

DS3000 only used them in Compbrake 4 pots and they where far to grabby, initial bite was way to aggressive, especially with the 182 ABS system which is not the best.

CL5+ have a nice initial bite when warm but on a long braking zone will tail off and once really pushed for several hot laps become really inconsistent with there coefficient properties, sometimes the initial bite is good but the following lap on the same corner they're totally different and bite is poor, they don't fully fade though like OE or DS2500's

RC8 are a bit mental, unbelievable bite hot or cold and not a bloody hint of fade, they are to much for my Clio though and lock up very easily which doesn't inspire confidence, similar to the DS3000s in 4 pots but more control, as above though on nicely set up coilovers coupled to hot slicks on track they'd be epic.

 

[White16valver]

Thanks for the detailed feedback

CL5+ have a nice initial bite when warm but on a long braking zone will tail off and once really pushed for several hot laps become really inconsistent with there coefficient properties, sometimes the initial bite is good but the following lap on the same corner they're totally different and bite is poor, they don't fully fade though like OE or DS2500's

RC8 are a bit mental, unbelievable bite hot or cold and not a bloody hint of fade, they are to much for my Clio though and lock up very easily which doesn't inspire confidence, similar to the DS3000s in 4 pots but more control, as above though on nicely set up coilovers coupled to hot slicks on track they'd be epic.

I never got a chance to track mine on the CL RC5+ so that's useful feedback. Inconsistency is what caused me to bin my last set of pads - some days it would stop happily, other days I could just about put my foot through the floor and they'd still not really work. My fear was I'd run someone over because I couldn't stop, so they had to go!

Aren't the RC8 designed for endurance racing GT cars and similar? I'm not surprised they're a bit much for a teeny tiny clio lol

 

[Rojer]

I can see this thread has sparked quite the debate haha. I won't be going for the 4 pots I will stick with the standard calipers for now. I don't need some mad track pads as the car won't see the track that often, I can happily have a set of race pads on the side if i need them. This is mostly aimed at fast road. I do brake hard and late at times i need to have good bite from cold like a standard pad, but the ability to take more abuse when going for it.

If you want to pop up to Flitwick, you can take mine for a drive to try them?

I would be up for that, PM me your details. What are they like from cold?

The way to decide which brake pads to get comes down to your use and driving style as well,if you are a driver that's late/hard on brake pedal or what use they are going to get i.e fast road /regular track occasional track etc.... The pads that have already been mentioned on you thread will work across a broad spectrum of uses so you will be fine with one of the recommendations already,but just take into consideration the parameters I put above plus how much you are prepared to spend their should be a pad that will definitely work for you:smile:.SJ.

I do tend to be late and hard on the brakes, what i need is good stopping power from cold and not to fade when hot. I will be visiting the track maybe a couple times this year depends how it goes and will be places like Bedford etc as they are close. It will be mostly fast road, if i'm hooning down some country lanes at 2/3am then i need them to be able to stand up to some abuse.

If you've set the standard ones on fire, theyre broken. So start with maintenance.

• Ensure the pistons and sliders are free to move, without excess play in them.
• Ensure the pads are free to slide in the carriers, this normally means cleaning up the pad backplates, taking a file to the carriers to remove any corrosion and deposits (carefully) to leave the rails clean and then lightly greasing them
• Check the brakes apply and release cleanly with the car jacked up.
• It's worth spending some money on fluid and the ATE stuff has various (well documented) issues. Personally Ive flushed mine for some boggo dot 4 and won't be using it again. After this, Motul RBF seems to be well respected.

• Braided hoses are nice, I normally fit them as they are barely any more expensive than new lines and last longer, but tbh, the gains are minimal.

• New, good quality OEM spec disks are more than plenty and Brembo HC are this as well as cheap. @George@RTR_Parts is your man on here for brake parts.

• Decent branded standard spec pads are plenty for road use and tbh also for beginner track use, after that there are many options between £100 and £200. Skip mintex 1144 and Ferodo DS2500 and head straight for the RC5+/DS3000/DS1.11 type level.

• 4 pot upgrade is more about feel than braking effort or cooling IMHO, certainly if fitted to standard sized disks.

In your shoes, I'd be correcting whatever fault exists in your brakes by returning them to OE spec, but with upgraded hoses and fluid (to save doing this twice) and then see how you get on with them and upgrade accordingly, but there is no point justifying a 4 pot upgrade based on defective standard kit.

I personally haven't heard many issues about the ATE fluid, I have used Motul in the past and it was pretty good. I don't believe i have a fault with the current setup, the car went to Engine Dynamics when I first got it and they noticed a very slight sticking in one of the rear calipers, but the fronts are all good. I believe the car suffers from cheap maintenance and has low quality pads in there. When the new brakes are fitted by Beaniesport I will ask him to check it all over.