Cam timing and the group buy on timing tools

[simon_b]

Hi all, I've recently renewed my membership of CS, after a few years away from owning a Renault and having just bought a 182 Trophy. I noticed the group buy on cam timing tools (which hasn't gone anywhere yet) and I'd possibly be interested in joining the group buy for the group N timing tool. I just have a few questions first before posting in the group buy thread and committing to taking a set of tools, which I hope someone maybe able to help with.
So I understand that the 172 group N timing advances the intake cam and retards the exhaust cam for more overlap, and it makes sense to me that this would directionally improve performance. I've seen figures of 6 degrees intake advance mentioned, and 4 degrees exhaust r****d. Presumably this is crank degrees rather than cam degrees? Can anyone confirm if this is correct?
I also read that the Clio 172 Ph2 and 182 FBW are very sensitive to overlap due to manifold pressure fluctuations, causing the engine to stall at idle, and this is why catcams 421s don't work well with the standard ECU. Presumably this is the reason why the group N cam timing needs to be combined with a remap that increases idle speed?
Has anyone got any experience of running more overlap on a 182 with the standard cams (and the appropriate remap) either group N timing or something custom, and does it provide a worthwhile performance benefit over standard timing?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Cheers, Simon

 

[pj_sibley]

@bloke, do you have any thoughts or advice on this?


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[bloke]

aren't they supposed to be a secret still? :wink:

 

[simon_b]

Fair enough, I can understand people who do this for a job wanting to protect the knowledge that they've spent time and money building up.
So to ask the question a different way, rather than doing the group buy, is there anyone who works in the business who can re-time the standard cams on a 182 to the group n timing for me? If so, what are the expected performance gains with the appropriate mapping and how tolerable would the idle / part load quality be?

Cheers, simon

 

[bloke]

when are your belts due?

 

[bloke]

when are your belts due?

 

[simon_b]

2 years time, I think. They were done 3 years ago.

Are you thinking 197 cams at the same time as getting the belts done might be a better option for me? I saw on some of your other threads that you've had quite good results with this. have you tried group n timing on standard 182 cams for a comparison with the 197 cams?

 

[bloke]

was going to say if you wanted to go for gp n timing then you might as well do it at same time as belts as you'll need map as well.

never done anything gp n timing.

 

[simon_b]

Ok cheers, yeah it's a valid point. 197 cams could be a tempting option too, would be good to hear from someone who has experience of both to better understand how they compare. I suppose 197 cams is proven though; the results you previously posted did look good!

 

[imprezaworks]

Would allways recommend

197 cams, carl to fit and time.
Efi to map

Done.

 

[simon_b]

Who is Carl (I'm new)?! Is he the same person as "bloke"?

 

[imprezaworks]

Yup

 

[bloke]

think mark, northloop has done a few with gp n timing?

 

[imprezaworks]

@NorthloopCup

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yeah I've done quite a few now tbh. They do go well I must say.

 

[bloke]

Yeah I've done quite a few now tbh. They do go well I must say.

you had any of them mapped by chris by any chance? if so got any graphs? be interesting to compare to 197 cams.

 

[NorthloopCup]

you had any of them mapped by chris by any chance? if so got any graphs? be interesting to compare to 197 cams.

Only one mapped by scoff was @Chambers_RS 's cup with the rs2 mate. I don't personally have any graphs, but the ones I've seen have all made better torque than 197 cams, but not as much peak hp.

 

[bloke]

Only one mapped by scoff was @Chambers_RS 's cup with the rs2 mate. I don't personally have any graphs, but the ones I've seen have all made better torque than 197 cams, but not as much peak hp.

think i was there when he was doing that one?

how much torque from gp n? had 174 from last one on 197 cams.

 

[NorthloopCup]

think i was there when he was doing that one?

how much torque from gp n? had 174 from last one on 197 cams.

The best I've seen was 178lb/ft mate. It's all about the low down torque with the grp n timing though tbh. That's their party piece.

 

[bloke]

The best I've seen was 178lb/ft mate. It's all about the low down torque with the grp n timing though tbh. That's their party piece.

this one hit peak about 4,000rpm so not that low down but pulls/revs stupidly well though!! you'd swear it's got lightweight bottom end but it's stock.

 

[NorthloopCup]

this one hit peak about 4,000rpm so not that low down but pulls/revs stupidly well though!! you'd swear it's got lightweight bottom end but it's stock.

Tbf mate my cup was very similar when it was on the standard engine and grp n timing. They did something similar with the mk3's as well, and I may or may not have the stuff to do it. :wink:

 

[bloke]

Tbf mate my cup was very similar when it was on the standard engine and grp n timing. They did something similar with the mk3's as well, and I may or may not have the stuff to do it. :wink:

Sounds interesting about the mk3, not really done much with them yet but had a few through and got a couple of 197/200 engines to Chuck in things so keep me posted on that one if you don't mind?

We did look at messing with exhaust cam timing on my lads twiglet, k4m engine, but with going boosted decided to leave it until it's done and I do belts on it and see what it's like then.

 

[simon_b]

This all sounds very interesting, many thanks for the replies.
From the sounds of things, I'd be keen to try either of these options (gp n timing or 197 cams), both seem to give decent and worthwhile results. For the sake of £100, I'm definitely keen to join the group buy for gp n tools if it were to go ahead so I'll add a post in there to confirm (@NorthloopCup - is this looking unlikely to go ahead still?).
And if the group buy doesn't go ahead then I'd still be keen to bring the car to one of you guys for the fitting / timing of cams at some point in the future (if you are offering this service, of course), and then take it to EFi or RS tuning for mapping.
As @bloke said, it would make sense to combine this with doing the belts - next year it'll only be a year away from needing the belts anyway, so I could justify having them done slightly early.

Once again, thanks very much for the helpful replies!

 

[Darryl_1983]

Another potential customer here....
I'm running a RS2 inlet at the minute on standard timing, mapped by RS Tuning, peak power was 185bhp, with a nice flat torque spread at around 150ftlb. Would love to get closer to 195bhp with 170+ftlb of torque.

Think my belts are due early next year, so looking to probably get this done in the next 3-6 months i guess

 

[bloke]

Everything I've seen sm or rs2 inlet the torque is low and will be due to runner length.

My phase 1 on sm inlet and reasonably wild cams only makes a bit over 150 lb/ft. Would have to check to confirm exact figure, but is running 207bhp.

 

[Darryl_1983]

Everything I've seen sm or rs2 inlet the torque is low and will be due to runner length.

My phase 1 on sm inlet and reasonably wild cams only makes a bit over 150 lb/ft. Would have to check to confirm exact figure, but is running 207bhp.

I've not seen power that high before using a RS2/SM inlet, are you saying you're just running wilder cams and a SM inlet to achieve that?

To be honest with the info in the other thread, which i think you've posted, i'm wondering if it's worth ditching the RS2 and just running 197 cams, seems to achieve better torque, and still hitting around the 195bhp.

The sale of the RS2 would almost pay for the cams/belt and remapping i reckon too.

 

[pj_sibley]

As the OP knows, I've recently fitted a ported/flowed head, Catcams 421s, matched inlets and had a custom map from Paul @RSTuning.

The engine made a very strong 193bhp with peak torque of 165lbft and a good spread of torque of 150+lbft between 4-6.5k rpm.

It drives superbly but I suspect the character of the engine is very different to the SM/RS2 inlet or Group N timed cars, where the torque spread is much lower down the rev range.


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[bloke]

I've not seen power that high before using a RS2/SM inlet, are you saying you're just running wilder cams and a SM inlet to achieve that?

To be honest with the info in the other thread, which i think you've posted, i'm wondering if it's worth ditching the RS2 and just running 197 cams, seems to achieve better torque, and still hitting around the 195bhp.

The sale of the RS2 would almost pay for the cams/belt and remapping i reckon too.

sorry, mine is 158lb/ft. just had quick check of the graph.

with sm inlet, epas, 172 exhaust manifold and pms manifold back and decat it made 201bhp.

then went for 182 exhaust manifold, billet flywheel and colombo & bariani cams and that was when it made 207bhp.
limiter at 7,900rpm.

 

[simon_b]

I'm thinking early next year might be a good time for me to have belts done and do something with either 197 cams or group n timing. @bloke and @NorthloopCup, do you guys do this sort of thing for your main job, or is it something you do on the side, and would either of you be prepared to do the belts / cam fitting / timing work on my car some time early next year? If so, what would be the best thing to do, message at the time that I'm ready to try and organise something?

 

[bloke]

i spend about nine days a week swearing at clios, mark/northloop just plays with wagons all day long 'cos he's a big kid :tonguewink:

 

[NorthloopCup]

Sounds interesting about the mk3, not really done much with them yet but had a few through and got a couple of 197/200 engines to Chuck in things so keep me posted on that one if you don't mind?

We did look at messing with exhaust cam timing on my lads twiglet, k4m engine, but with going boosted decided to leave it until it's done and I do belts on it and see what it's like then.

Yeah I'll keep you posted mate. It'll go to scoff for mapping anyway.

I'm thinking early next year might be a good time for me to have belts done and do something with either 197 cams or group n timing. @bloke and @NorthloopCup, do you guys do this sort of thing for your main job, or is it something you do on the side, and would either of you be prepared to do the belts / cam fitting / timing work on my car some time early next year? If so, what would be the best thing to do, message at the time that I'm ready to try and organise something?

Bloke does, but I do it on the side. I'm a fully qualified mechanic though, but I mainly build the jc5's up for people.
Yeah if you wanted grp n timing just drop me a pm and we can sort something out. I'm sure bloke will say something similar.

 

[Callum Jack]

if group buy some how happens ill be more than happy to buy some. Or if some body is very kind and generous and wouldn't mind sending their group n tools to Australia to be rented out for a week or so that would be great

 

[NorthloopCup]

if group buy some how happens ill be more than happy to buy some. Or if some body is very kind and generous and wouldn't mind sending their group n tools to Australia to be rented out for a week or so that would be great :smile:

How many do you want mate?

 

[Callum Jack]

How many do you want mate?

s**t my wording was terrible, only after the one

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[NorthloopCup]

s**t my wording was terrible, only after the one

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Lol! I'll have a look in the group buy thread and see how many had expressed interest in the grp n tool mate. I need 10 as a minimum before it'll start.

 

[gez 172]

Is the Grp N timing suited to standard 172 cams?

Where do all these group buys happen?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Is the Grp N timing suited to standard 172 cams?

Where do all these group buys happen?

Yes it is mate. No group buy for the tool as there wasn't enough interest for me to justify making the outlay for having them made unfortunately.

 

[gez 172]

Yes it is mate. No group buy for the tool as there wasn't enough interest for me to justify making the outlay for having them made unfortunately.

Cheers for the reply buddy.

No worries, keep this updated if there's any chance in the future.

 

[scooby_teddy82]

Tbf mate my cup was very similar when it was on the standard engine and grp n timing. They did something similar with the mk3's as well, and I may or may not have the stuff to do it. :wink:

Did I see you can do this to the mk3 200 ? Is it viable ?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Did I see you can do this to the mk3 200 ? Is it viable ?

It’s over £1k by the time it’s all done and mapped mate.

 

[scooby_teddy82]

And

It’s over £1k by the time it’s all done and mapped mate.

what am I expecting to see from it ? So cheaper than doing the cams alone.