Cambelt

[Paulstewart20]

Hi I dropped a rod a few weeks ago and since then I bought a cheap engine fitted new dephaser and belts etc, I have done this once before however this time the engine wont fire at all it backfires, could it be possible I have the cams located the wrong way round or something? I thought that was not poss as the slits which the tool fits in only goes one way, both earth straps on gearbox are good, plus its firing so that tells me it's more engine than anything else.
Any help is appreciated, just wondering if there is a way to check timing is correct etc without starting again.

 

[JamesBryan]

Whip the black cam plugs out the right hand side and see if the tool slots in.

I believe it is possible to have them both 180° out.

 

[bloke]

Leads on properly?

 

[Paulstewart20]

Leads on properly?

Yeah I think the post before about 180 out is likely but any way to be sure?

 

[hipwell]

Yeah I think the post before about 180 out is likely but any way to be sure?

Take the end caps off, pin the crank and make sure the cams are the right way up.

I can't remember which way they should be (it's in the pdf manual) but there's a big half moon and a small half moon

 

[JamesBryan]

When you put the horseshoe tool in, you should be able to put a bolt in top that locates in the top of the cam cover.

If it's 180° out on both then it wouldn't line up with the bolt hole. It'd sit higher.

 

[Ianboom]

Bigger half moon needs to be at the top as you view them.
Even if the timing is slightly out it won't run properly ( as I found out last week).
By chance, did you pin the crank in the cut out rather than the balancing drilling?

 

[Paulstewart20]

Bigger half moon needs to be at the top as you view them.
Even if the timing is slightly out it won't run properly ( as I found out last week).
By chance, did you pin the crank in the cut out rather than the balancing drilling?

I put the pin in the crank by th dip stick, when you say wont run properly do you mean runs but like a bag of nails or not at all because mine wont run at all just back fires loudly

 

[hipwell]

I put the pin in the crank by th dip stick, when you say wont run properly do you mean runs but like a bag of nails or not at all because mine wont run at all just back fires loudly

When pinning the crank it's very easy to get the pin in a balancing cut out rather than the actual crank setting hole.

Depends how how out it is, group n timing could be considered out but they still run

 

[Paulstewart20]

Group n? But yes I agree with the pin o had to do twice but I'm wondering if i got the wrong hole again, the first time I did this a guy on here mentioned sticking a screwdriver in the spark plug hole to confirm TDC but I cant remember which cylinder that is, can anyone else confirm this?

 

[Ianboom]

Cylinder 1 is nearest the flywheel.
I had a plastic straw to show TDC, but as it gets near the top, it's quite difficult to see when it's stopped moving.
I got somebody (my 14 year old!) to turn the crank near TDC until the pin went in, however, it didn't go all the way in. I then pulled it out and got him to rotate the crank a bit more and I put pressure on the pin until it went in fully as the crank turned.
Ian

 

[JamesBryan]

There is also a hole in the gearbox bell housing that has some marks on it to show TDC, the flywheel has a mark on it too and they both line up when it's dead on.

Quite hard to see though, you'll need a bright light down there to help. It's next to where the crank pin goes.

 

[Paulstewart20]

Yeah I lined up the fly wheel to the mark and I put the pin in too, so what could cause back fire if the belt is all correct the leads are pretty self explanatory as they are different lengths so any ideas?

 

[Ianboom]

If you're 100% sure the timing is correct.
Are the plug leads the correct way round?
Are all the sensors and hoses connected, is the cat/exhaust/inlet blocked?
Back firing is neat fuel in the exhaust being ignited.
Personally, I still think the timing is out.
Where about are you?

 

[bloke]

timing, you sure leads are on right way? doesn't matter about the length as they all go to the same coilpack

 

[Paulstewart20]

timing, you sure leads are on right way? doesn't matter about the length as they all go to the same coilpack

My leads have different lengths but yes 4321 starting from cambelt side, will do the cambelt again tonight I'm pretty sure its that's that's is out as there are no loose plugs etc plus its sparking and fuelling so to me that points towards the timing. Thanks for all the help

 

[JamesBryan]

Upload some pics when you've got the timing tools in.

We may be able to see if you've gone wrong anywhere.

 

[Paulstewart20]

Ok update, I had one upside down (I have no idea how) so all.good now purrs like a kitten took me 5 hours last night but end result was good cheers for the help everyone

 

[Ianboom]

Lol, easy to mess the timing up, glad you sorted it.
My neighbour bought my wife's old 197 4 years ago and he now has it up for sale.
It's more than 12 months overdue a cambelt, so offered it me back.
Looks like I have another cambelt to change!

Ironically, my 182 had the belt changed by a specialist and the timing was out when I replaced it.
The 197 was done by Fred at BTM, it will be interesting to see if that's out.

 

[JamesBryan]

Lol, easy to mess the timing up, glad you sorted it.
My neighbour bought my wife's old 197 4 years ago and he now has it up for sale.
It's more than 12 months overdue a cambelt, so offered it me back.
Looks like I have another cambelt to change!

Ironically, my 182 had the belt changed by a specialist and the timing was out when I replaced it.
The 197 was done by Fred at BTM, it will be interesting to see if that's out.

My 182 is on its 5th year for the cambelt now. Fred did mine last. It's been strong since he did it.

 

[JamesBryan]

Ok update, I had one upside down (I have no idea how) so all.good now purrs like a kitten took me 5 hours last night but end result was good cheers for the help everyone

How haha

The horseshoe tool wouldn't go in if they were opposite to each other would it?

 

[hipwell]

How haha

The horseshoe tool wouldn't go in if they were opposite to each other would it?

I was just thinking that, surely it'd only go in if they were both upside down?

 

[JamesBryan]

I was just thinking that, surely it'd only go in if they were both upside down?

Been a while since I've looked, but yeah it's physically impossible I'm sure.

 

[Paulstewart20]

How haha

The horseshoe tool wouldn't go in if they were opposite to each other would it?

I keep thinking that but the tool I have (cheap crap) does not have the bolt hole locator to tell you if it's correct, slits high or slits low so all I had to do was get the slits inline, so in my case dephaser was high the other low it's a strong tool but missing that bit so I might invest in another.

 

[hipwell]

I keep thinking that but the tool I have (cheap crap) does not have the bolt hole locator to tell you if it's correct, slits high or slits low so all I had to do was get the slits inline, so in my case dephaser was high the other low it's a strong tool but missing that bit so I might invest in another.

It must be a really poor fitting tool then because regardless of the bolt hole, if one half moon is facing up and the other one facing down then surely it's physically impossible to get a straight tool to sit between them.

 

[Paulstewart20]

Possibly it was tight on both accounts though like I said will be investing in a new one soon.

 

[bloke]

if you have had one cam 180deg out to the other then there's a pretty good chance you've got bent valves.

 

[Ianboom]

If both cams were 180° out would it turn over without damage but not run?

 

[bloke]

you can't really have both cams 180deg out.

 

[Paulstewart20]

if you have had one cam 180deg out to the other then there's a pretty good chance you've got bent valves.

I did not think an engine would run with bent valves or have I got that wrong?

 

[bloke]

yup, they can if not that bad.

 

[Paulstewart20]

How can I tell not taking it for a spin yet but revs ok and not noisy

 

[william84]

How can I tell not taking it for a spin yet but revs ok and not noisy

compression test

 

[bloke]

So you had one cam tjat was 180deg out to the other one?

Unless you dropped it well away from tdc when you span the cam 180deg you will of had valve contact.

 

[Ianboom]

If both cams were out 180 degs, the valves would be fine, but the injector timing would be out.

 

[Paulstewart20]

It's running well so I'm happy at the moment, going to leave it there.