Clio 2 1.4 16v -> 1.6 16v GT Swap.

[Grey2231]

So after quite a bit of searching to no avail. I will ask you guys.
I own a 2002 Clio 1.4 16v. I absolutely love the car. I bought it in 2015 with 182,000km (113,750m) for 500€. She now has 250,300km (156,438m) and still going strong. I love my 4 door and would like to keep it. I love working on cars and bikes (Hence why I have been doing it for a living for 20 years) But I have a question. An RS 2.0 engine is just way too expensive here in Germany (it costs more than the whole car, usually 2000-3500€) and I know I have to swap over a lot of stuff anyway like subframe, Brakes, suspension and so on and to top it off with our lovely inspection service here it would be really hard to register the car afterwards. So I thought of going with the 1.6 16v GT with 133hp from the Clio 3 GT. (700-1200€)
How well does this engine fit into the Clio ph2?
Future mods to support the swap are. Poly Bushings for the whole car, Rear disc/drum swap, Upgraded shocks and springs (right now I have a set of Eibach factory replacement spring in it) and a full hi-flow exhaust.
Current mods are. Magnaflow exhaust, Rear Spoiler, Custom CAI, 15mm wheel spacers front and rear, and my selfmade Deadpool Shifter knob.

 

[Martin_172]

the engine should be a pretty straight swap, your car as far as im aware will use a JB3 gearbox? which the 1.6 16v 110hp also used so that engine would be a straight swap but I believe the twingo RS uses a JR5 or something similar, where the clio GT version of the engine used the 6 speed box which is much bigger (same as 197/200 gearbox)

my plan of action would be get the 1.6 16v 110hp engine and fit that as its a direct fit to your car, or even use just the bottom end with your head, either upload the 1.6 map to your ecu or have a remap done and you should be running 110-115hp with more torque, you could then look at what bits from the 1.6 16v 133 engine you could run to further improve power.

there was a guy on here a few years ago i beleive called Olliver_K4M or somthing who had the 1.6 16v engine in a mk1 clio and done some mods to it, there was also Mini_valver i think his name was who tried out a new inlet manifold but it was a few years back now

 

[Grey2231]

Yeah at first I was just going to do that but here all the small parts are really expensive. A used Clio 3 GT intake manifold costs 200€ (and there's only one used on Ebay) where the whole engine minus trans is just 700€.
I have found a few 5 speed JH3 131 transmissions from the same year range and even claim they fit the Clio GT133
My Trans is a JB1 958, After looking at the different ones, JB1 JH3 JR5 I notice there is quite a lot different, mainly shifter linkage. Mine uses that metal bar under the carriage.

So technically the GT 133 is still a K4M block right? And the K4M and the K4J are almost identical so fitting my JB1 shouldn't be a problem (I just rebuilt it last Fall)? I will probably swap the final gear set anyway or find a way to swap to a different gearbox.

A lot of the parts for the 1.6 16v will also fit the 1.4 16v since they are the same engine just with a longer stroke (heads, cams, pistons, and much more). I can get the Clio tuner and with the baseline tune they claim 10% more power so that puts my crazy 1.4 up to around 110hp and only costs 200€. This is also why I am considering the GT engine with 133hp since they both cost the same if 133 or 110 hp and engine swaps are not so hard for me. I used to swap small block chevys in and out of one car into another all before lunch.

 

[bloke]

The 133 is a different block.

 

[Grey2231]

Ok. so I guess a complete 133 swap is out unless I can find a way to swap a 5 speed to it and make it work in my Clio 2. For now I will just concentrate on making it handel and brake well then I will consider engine swapping. maybe I will just go all out and swap the 2.0 RS after all. Get a nice donor car and swap it all over. (I know the whole thing with just buy a 2.0 RS but I have a wife and 3 kids so a 4 door is a must and I just like it. Thank you for all of your help guys.

 

[bloke]

Think Pistons and cams are the only real difference? Head and valves are same as standard k4m.

 

[Martin_172]

yeah if your car uses a jb1 then you can use a jb3 and jc5 box as far as I know, they are a similar series box so same linkage and cable clutch.

I would just go for a 1.6 16v 110 engine as its a straight easy swap and if you want more power then turbo charge it rather than going down the n/a route I didn't think my twingo 133 was massively faster than my 1.6 16v 110hp Dynamique was, infact the Clio probably had a bit more torque low down or at least the less weight made it feel that way.

a 110hp engine with a nice responsive turbo and 160-170hp would be perfect!

 

[bloke]

a 110hp engine with a nice responsive turbo and 160-170hp would be perfect!

that wouldn't be much fun, driven one and it was meh at best. got to go over 200bhp.

 

[Grey2231]

Ok, Is the 1.6 110hp worth tearing down and redoing everything for more power later? Like better rods and so for bigger boost? There is a lot of aftermarket parts for the 1,6 (That also fit the 1.4) I also thought about tearing into my 1.4 and making it a screamer. I know it won't make a ton of power but it's still fun building them up but I think all that effort is better for a 1.6 as the gains will be better in the end. I also thought maybe if I go Turbo then try to swap in a VAG 1.8T or go with N2O. I also just don't want the huge hassle of tuning an ECU for something it never had (Turbo for a 1.6) I also wanted to swap in the Megane RS turbo motor for a while because I could just use the stock ECU and Gauges, but dropped it as there is way too much involved and I would like to just do litte bits here and there. I will probably look into the 1.6 for now and just build the engine piece for piece till I'm ready to just drop it in.

 

[Grey2231]

What are some good ideas for the 1.6 110hp?
My ideas were...
Clio GT Intake
RS DBW Throttlebody
Cams
Hi-Comp Pistons for na or low-comp for boost
maybe some head work
and lightening up the whole rotating ass. and have it all balanced
Tuned length exhaust header
race Cat (Have to have a cat in germany) and 50mm or bigger exhaust (depending on HP/Boost)

 

[Martin_172]

that wouldn't be much fun, driven one and it was meh at best. got to go over 200bhp.

depends on your idea of fun really, some find the standard car fun, some find them with 300hp as slow. ultimately coming from a 98hp 1.4 then 170hp with turbo torque Is a good useable power.

 

[Martin_172]

What are some good ideas for the 1.6 110hp?
My ideas were...
Clio GT Intake
RS DBW Throttlebody
Cams
Hi-Comp Pistons for na or low-comp for boost
maybe some head work
and lightening up the whole rotating ass. and have it all balanced
Tuned length exhaust header
race Cat (Have to have a cat in germany) and 50mm or bigger exhaust (depending on HP/Boost)

at a guess that would cost a lot more than a turbo kit while getting you less power. you could turbo your current 1.4 then move over to 1.6 if you decide to go forged for more power, TWR performance do a turbo kit that fits 1.4 and 1.6 engines.

 

[Grey2231]

What I don't get is how they can add a turbo without remapping the ECU. I just added an open filter with a CAI kit and noticed power loss (Too much air)

 

[Martin_172]

What I don't get is how they can add a turbo without remapping the ECU. I just added an open filter with a CAI kit and noticed power loss (Too much air)

you would need to run a piggyback or standalone for the ECU, or remap the standard ecu but its not an ideal solution.

 

[bloke]

TWR performance do a turbo kit that fits 1.4 and 1.6 engines.

trw, i always get them mixed up.

 

[Martin_172]

trw, i always get them mixed up.

that's why I couldn't find them on google!!!! lol

ive got a K4M at the moment with the 4 speed auto, tempted to boost it for fun and see what the box can take before I scrap it!

 

[Grey2231]

you would need to run a piggyback or standalone for the ECU, or remap the standard ecu but its not an ideal solution.

Ok I was beginning to wonder how the hell they could do it with stock ECU but now I see. ok so now I need to see about the ECU part. I can tune NA engines ok (I learned Dyno tuning at Harley Davidson.) But tuning for a turbo can be pricey and I don't have access to a Dyno.

 

[Grey2231]

I wrote them an Email. I just need to find out which injectors they used, and if the tune in included in the price.

 

[Martin_172]

the 1.6 16v uses the same ecu as the clio 172 and people tune them on the stock ecu for boost but I believe its not perfect but ive never driven one, it was covered on here a while back I think the thread was how to build a 300hp turbo clio or something.

 

[bloke]

stock ecu runs boost without issue, just no boost control but that's not the end of the world.

 

[Grey2231]

Yeah I can go for a stand alone boost controller, that's not a big deal. I just want to make sure i can figure out everything I need ahead of time. I prefer a plug and play system. If I know I need a certain controller then ok. I just need to figure out where to get a tune and if I need software to tune it on the go.

 

[bloke]

just run on wastegate pressure. you not seen my thread on the boosted 133 twingo?

 

[Grey2231]

just run on wastegate pressure. you not seen my thread on the boosted 133 twingo?

I have not. i guess I need to find it.

 

[Vaughan]

I just added an open filter with a CAI kit and noticed power loss (Too much air)

Not too much air: it's lost the charging effect from the intake tuned length resonance. A well tuned intake can yield around 130% volume. That is, suck in 30% more fuel & air into the cylinder than the swept capacity, to the 2.0 litre engine acts like a 2.6 litre.

 

[bloke]

I have not. i guess I need to find it.

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/twingo-rs133.803233/

 

[Grey2231]

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/twingo-rs133.803233/

Holy s**t. I just read it all. That thing is a Beast.
It's kinda sad that there isn't that big of a mod Scene here in Germany like in the UK or USA (ok in the US it's mainly Hondas and LS V8s)
The bigger scenes here are BMWs, VAG, Merc, and so on. but not much in the Hatchback scene.

MY idea is to get the 1.6 16v 110hp engine (Just found the 2002 megane K4M 760 makes 115hp) and start right off the bat with Forged internals. I know how I am and I will never be satisfied with low boost, So i will just keep driving my 1.4 16v while building the 1.6.
I found a sight that sells forged pistons for boost or NA (12.7 for na and 8.5 for boost) a while back when I first got my Clio. They were around 500€ a set if i remember right.
I will also try to source some good supporting parts like Cams, Intake, and so.
I need to source Injectors, a better pump, Turbo MAP Sensor, Intake and Trottle body. Will I need to go with a cable Body or can i Keep my DBW?
I am considering a stock cam (Like Gt 133) or going with an aftermarket like cat cams. I also saw that cat cams sells forged rods for the K4M but 800£ for the set.
I think I might also go for a GT28 instead of the GT25.
I'm also really liking your tube manifold. Man I really need to get a better job going to pay for all this lol. I am just a normal mechanic and in Germany we are waaaaay underpaid. (I am actually an American, but I stayed after my time in the Army)

 

[bloke]

Funny you should mention the LS V8, my lad is just about to do an L92/LS3 on throttle bodies to go in his C3 he's just bought. Came with an LS1 in it but block is scrap.

Most bits will be easy, 330cc or megane injectors, standard cams and inlet will be fine as well. Laguna turbo map sensor is same connector.

I'd go rising rate fuel reg from the start though.

Stock ecu will be fine with a boost module, the later ecu runs boost fine without the module. Keep fbw throttle.

Don't go for a bit turbo though, it will spoil the drive, unless your chasing big power.

Stock Pistons are dished rather than the 133 as they are semi intruder type, same as the 197. I'd be tempted to run stock Pistons but stick a 0.8mm decompression plate on and Chuck about 12psi at it. Good tubular manifold, 2 1/2" exhaust and meg 225 turbo as you can pick them up for peanuts.

That should see you to a nice 200bhp easy enough.

 

[Grey2231]

Nice. I have built my fair share of V8s but now I am in love with my sport compacts.
Which turbo should I look for? Megane Sport or Diesel? Most of the used ones I find are Diesel but some Sport ones are around 200-250€
Would these be the right injectors? Injectors
What boost module would you recommend?
As far as a rising rate fuel Reg I found this one Here
MAP Sensor I found was Renault 8200233831 between 30-75€
Ok should I still go for the forged pistons or rather stock with the plate? Remember we have the Autobahn here and I am under way a lot (conventions or visiting my Girlfriend) I don't want to melt/break a piston. since I will have the block open anyway for Rods.
Will the stock plastic manifold hold with that kind of pressure or better to go with an Aluminum one?

Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row before tackling such a big Project.
And thank you so much for your help.

 

[Grey2231]

I also found a complete car (4dr Clio 1.6 16v) for 800€ that I can use for the Donor car and for spare parts.

 

[bloke]

Petrol turbo, all diesel ones seem to be tiny.

TD04 14T is megane 225
15T is megane 250
12T is Laguna GT

The 14t is probably your best bet. Peanuts used and new core is touch under £150. You'll need to cut the neck and turn it 90deg to clear the inlet.

Can't see the plastic inlet being a problem. There are a couple of other cars that use the same spec engine as the 133 so you could pick one up cheap enough.

We've had a few now for a couple of hundred quid each. Not sure what prices are like over there but if they are expensive I can find you an engine and get it on a pallet to you easy enough. Last pallet I sent to Germany was touch over £100.

Link won't work for the injectors?

 

[Grey2231]

Ok cool. the injectors are Renault part number 8200511099 Megane 225 R26
I can get a K4M 760 (115hp) for 350€ plus 90€ shipping
I just found on on Ebay.co.uk for 171.60£ shipping 120£ (Total 338.86€) Thats a lot cheaper than I expected.
Is there a difference in the engine if its Left hand drive or Right? As far as I know there shouldn't be.

You'll need to cut the neck and turn it 90deg to clear the inlet.

What exactly do you mean?

And I am having trouble finding one on ebay I found one in Germany from a Volvo. TD04L-14T from what I have read in a Subi Forum they make a bit more boost than a TD04 and have a slightly larger housing.
I am also looking for the T25 since TRW offers it with their kit.
What about a K03 or K04 turbo from Audi?
Sorry for all of the questions. I am kinda new to the turbo scene.

 

[Grey2231]

Also I am looking an intake with the TB to the side instead of back like the stock one.

 

[bloke]

Think it's the k4m 862 you want?

Injectors are correct.

The turbos have a different hotside and flange mount and the Renault one is a twin scroll.

The Garrett will be fine just don't go too big and I'd top mount it rather than behind the head. The tubular manifold they do isn't worth the money as it's no better than a cast log manifold then you look at how it will flow.

You need to cut the neck so it clears the plenum, you also need to cut a bit off the back of the plenum as well.

Pic isn't the best but should give you an idea.

 

[Grey2231]

Ok. I thought the K4M 862 wouldn't fit with my style of Transmission so I was going to go with the K4M 760 as a base since they are cheaper ( I won't be able to buy anything yet anyway since I am moving this summer (450km) and Looking for a new job)

With the Garret I would go with a T25 since it is able to support up to 2 Liters and up to 300hp. And a tube manifold like yours is what I am looking to get.

So pretty much the turbo outlet on the cold side needs to be shortened to clear the intake manifold?

 

[Grey2231]

Here is an example of K4M. The catalyst has been removed, change the firmware ECU. According to calculations, if you put the exhaust manifold 4-2-1 you can remove 130 hp and 180-190 Nm from the engine

Ok but my biggest problem is I cannot remove the cats on a street car. I still need to pass inspection with this car every 2 years which is why I will use a high flow race cat. I've seen these hold up to 1000hp and are completely non restrictive. And I am going to Turbo the 1.6L
Thank you for your advise.

 

[Grey2231]

And since my Hood is damaged anyway i will be adding a hood vent (similar to the Evo 8/9) Should I still go with the FMIC or does a Top mount have any benefits?

 

[bloke]

no need for vents and unless the car is designed with them they don't work and can even make things worse.

cheap £50 ebay fmic will be fine.

 

[Grey2231]

The hood was damaged from someone knocking over my motorcycle and making the vent was cheaper than getting a new/used one. But I'll stick to a fmic.

 

[Grey2231]

So I am starting to source my parts. What Piggyback did you use and is it easy to tune? Are there tunes I can download to get it started and work on it piece by piece? Or should I go straight to a Dyno tuner? There are not very many here in Germany since it's technically not always allowed without having it checked and registering it (€€€€€) I will definitely get an external turbo controller so I can change the Boost on the go. And I was also thinking with the 35% rule (30-40% loss of power through drive train) If you are really getting 260 at the wheel you are making 350 at the Crank. I was thinking maybe 300 or so. but wow. Lol

 

[bloke]

done on the stock ecu.